Snape's Request/Ungrateful Werewolf/Sorting and Snape/Dumbledore Duel

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 175876

> Lanval:
> This kind of speculating was great while we 
> were dealing with a WIP, but now it would be just... silly, IMO). 

zgirnius:
Before my time. Ahhh, all those wasted years.... <g>
 
> Also Severus' description of 'bitterness' and 'dislike'. 

zgirnius:
Yup, Sev despised James Potter. Still does! I always thought so. This 
never bothered me all that much. Still doesn't!

> Lanval:
>  we 
> can debate whether that beats the Marauders' idea of fun in Sheer 
> Evilness, 

> Lanval:
> But, if Lily says she finds it evil, then that's exactly what she 
> thinks, (again, because her disgust is vital to further plot 
> development), and I can't see it as a very useful to argue she's 
> perhaps just being tought with him, or is secretly having a laugh 
> but wants Sev all to herself and is trying to talk him out of his 
> friends, or is bewitched by James and just trying to tick poor Sev 
> off.

zgirnius:
Sure! And then she breaks off the relationship over the Worst Memory.

> Lanval:
> Sorry for extreme wordiness; hope I've made my point a bit 
> clearer. :)

zgirnius:
You have. My main interest in entering this discussion was the 'pig 
to slaughter' scene. You seemed to say that this could only be read 
in one way. I disagree. Just as we can bring our previous 
uinderstanding on the characters to bear in other scenes, and can 
consider things besides what is actually said in other scenes, we can 
do so there. My opinion that Snape cared about Harry (but would never 
admit it to a living soul, and may not have been admitting it even to 
himself) comes from the details of the scene.

> Lanval:
> A pointless argument here would be, again IMO, to say: Oh, he 
> probably got whacked about the head by his evil dad so badly just 
> that morning that he didn't catch what Lily was saying; of *course* 
> he sees absolutely no difference!

zgirnius:
LOL!

> Lanval:
> No, I don't think we should. If she tells us flat out that Severus 
> is lying, IMO there's no point is arguing that he is not. 

zgirnius:
I agree. What I meant here was that, since Sev lied once, we have 
license to suppose he might again/previously. It is something Snape 
does.

> Lanval:
> *What exactly* was he lying about? Why was he lying? What was he 
> feeling? Hey, let's start discussing.

zgirnius:
IMO, the branch dropping was accidental magic, and Sev knows it. (I 
think one thing that may have impressed Sev was the way Lily could do 
magic in a planned manner, and in a happy set of circumstances, as 
when flying off the swing).
 

> Lanval:
> Hm, can you point me to the exact words in the text, and the posts 
> in question? Not sure I remember what was said there.

zgirnius:
The discussion started with responses to this post by JudySerenity:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/175786
Unfortunately the threading feature seems not to be working, so I 
can't find all the responses. I made one...and Judy has another post 
that addresses a few different responses that I remember reading.

The line I had in mind was:

"She and James put their faith in the wrong person," said 
Dumbledore. "Rather like you, Severus. Weren't you hoping that Lord 
Voldemort would spare her?"

But I see now that your position is not as fixed as it sounded. The 
line above is certainly not more than Dumbledore's opinion, and could 
be taken to mean even less. (Like, DD is manipulating Sev, as 
proposed in an ongoing discussion I shal probably join <g> ) or 
guiding Sev to the right choices in a "tough love" manner (probably 
where I come out, though my views of DD are still in flux).
 
> Lanval:
> Are you referring to DD's plan that after DD's death, Snape must 
> tell Harry about his intended sacrifice, when the time is right 
> (once LV starts keeping Nagini under magical protection)?

zgirnius:
Yes. That is what I meant by the plan.

He had already agreed to kill Dumbledore when the time came. Of 
course, in light of the argument in the Forest, I suppose a possible 
reading is that Snape considered backing out of that part of the plan 
as well. He certainly never restated his consent to that part of the 
plan after saying DD takes too much for granted and looking mutinous. 
But the end of HBP proves that at some point, he decided to do it.

-- zgirnius, who is amused to note that Dumbledore characterizes the 
agreement to kill him as 'you gave me your word, Severus', when what 
we actually see is a 'curt nod'. Yeah, I think DD did trust him just 
a bit. <g>