Dumbledore Disgusted (was: Snape's Request gave Harry a second chance?)

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 175891

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at ...> wrote:

> So, I read the exchange between Snape and Dumbledore as:
> 
> Dumbledore says, "Snape, if you love Lily so much, couldn't you 
> remind Voldemort that you did him a great service by informing him of 
> the risk that Harry poses, and ask him to let Harry's mother live as 
> your reward?"
> 
> Snape says, "Yep, that's exactly what I asked His Voldieness."
> 
> Dumbledore responds, "That's disgusting."
> 
> To me, there's a world of difference between these two readings. In 
> the first reading, Snape will LET Voldemort kill Harry, if he gets 
> what he wants. In the second reading, Snape CAN'T do anything to stop 
> Voldemort from trying to kill Harry, all he can do is try to prevent 
> the additional, senseless murder of Harry's mother. 

Pippin:
Dumbledore is saying that  if Snape believed that Voldemort would do 
as Snape had asked and spare Lily, Snape would have continued as a
servant of Voldemort. It wouldn't have bothered him if James and Harry 
had died. He wouldn't have told Dumbledore of their danger.
I agree, that's disgusting. 


Judy: 
> Next topic -- Dumbledore's demand that Snape *give him something* to 
> save Lily, which strikes me as even more unreasonable. 

Pippin:
Dumbledore has a couple of reasons for asking this, IMO, some merciful,
some less so. He's  testing the strength of Snape's resolution to go against
Voldemort, and also giving Snape the opportunity to make amends for what
he's done, not just to the Potter family but to everyone who's against
Voldemort. 

I think it's important that at this point Snape doesn't grasp that 
Dumbledore will let Lily, James and Harry die only if he cannot save them. 
That understanding comes later.  Snape's great shock that Dumbledore
has thought for a long time that  Harry's life will be one he cannot
save makes no sense otherwise. 

Dumbledore is not devious about his  goal: it's  the defeat of LV, and 
everything he's doing *is* towards that purpose, so I wouldn't call his
tactics manipulative. Devious and shrewd, oh yes, but not for a secret
purpose.

It'd be more manipulative if he was gentle, IMO. He doesn't succumb, 
as he almost did with Harry, to Riddle's tactic of  building
a bond of affection and then using it for his private ends. The same
goes for the scene where he's being harsh with Snape over his grief
about Lily. Snape, one of the abandoned boys, would have been very
vulnerable to that. 

I don't think Dumbledore knew how much of the prophecy Snape had
heard or that  he could have erased a memory being hidden by
occlumency. In any case, he doesn't seem to have known until Snape
told him  that Voldemort was hunting the parents; he may have 
thought, as Harry did, that Voldemort would wait until the child  
grew to be dangerous. In that case, James and Lily might actually
be safer for Voldemort's knowing about the prophecy. Going after
them would be tempting fate, would it not?

> 
> Pippin replied:
> > It wasn't just about her. It was about him using Mudblood to others
> > of her blood. He didn't apologize for that or for lending his
> > support to others who did. His tragedy was that he 
> > didn't yet see why he should.
> 
> I agree completely that Snape's infraction here was not just calling 
> *Lily* a mudblood, it was using the term at all. However, after Lily 
> points that out to Snape, she turns her back and leaves, with 
> Snape "struggling on the verge of speech."

Pippin:
Before that, she says he's planning to become a Death Eater, and Snape can't
deny it and doesn't try to apologize for it. It's not a false accusation. It's
not like he doesn't know what the DE's are capable of. Unlike Regulus, he's 
got no trouble imagining  that wizards are capable of murder. 

 JKR confirms that Snape's tragedy was that he wanted Lily and
he wanted Mulciber too. The "you've chosen your way and I've chosen
mine" speech is very close to what Dumbledore says to Fudge -- if
you persist in this we've come to a parting of the ways. 

I think Snape understood perfectly well that Lily thought it was wrong for
him to use the term about anyone, and wrong to be a Death Eater -- he
just didn't understand why it should be more important to her than their 
friendship. Why would anyone care more about strangers  than they
cared about a friend? 

I don't think he really understood until Dumbledore commented on his 
bravery. He saw Fleur and Roger together, and he looked stricken.
I think it was then that he realized that if he'd been willing to declare
his opposition to Voldemort back then, he might not have lost her. 

 Pippin