DD disgusted/DD disgusted/DD lied

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 175943

Fifth post today, so I shall be combining some responses, to Alla, 
lizzyben, KathyD and G. G. Eggplant.

> Alla:
Re: Dumbledore Disgusted (was: Snape's Request gave Harry a second 
chance?)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/post?
act=reply&messageNum=175873
> Sure if Lily had something to answer for, I would agree that 
> characters in Potterverse at sixteen are held to it. But Lily is 
> culpable? I find it truly mind boggling.

<snip>

> I cannot help but having RL metaphors again. Trust me, if somebody 
> called me what I consider to be the RL metaphor of that name and 
> while apologising to me continued to think that it is okay to call 
> other jewish people that name, there would be slamming of the door 
> for sure.

zgirnius:
But the whole point of suggesting Lily has any responsibility at all 
is that she *assumed* Sev continued to think it was OK to call other 
Muggleborns that name. We saw the scene, and in it, she did not let 
Sev complete a single sentence longer than "I'm sorry". (I hope we 
can agree that, no matter what else he may have wanted to tell her, 
this was the right place to start?) She posed the question to him 
quite clearly, and as he struggled to answer, closed the door of her 
Common Room in his face.

She, and we, will never know for sure whether Sev was mustering some 
lame excuse, or was trying to say something different and unfamiliar, 
because she did not stick around to hear it. Rowling could have had 
Snape muster that lame excuse, and *then* had Lily tell him to get 
lost. But she didn't, and that means something. Both about Lily, and 
also, in my opinion, about Rowling's intentions in that chapter.

Not to say it is all her fault, or she is a bad person, or anything 
like that. Just, the friendship ended, and she had something to do 
with that.

> lizzyben:
Re: Dumbledore Disgusted (was: Snape's Request gave Harry a second 
chance?)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/post?
act=reply&messageNum=175875
> Yep. IMO, Dumbledore definitely let the prophecy go deliberately. 
> The proof of this is in how he reacts to Snape when Snape returns 
to 
> beg for Lily's life.
> 
> Snape waits, & DD appears - the first thing he says is "Well, 
> Severus? What message does Lord Voldemort have for me?'
> 
> He already knows who Snape is, and knows that he works for 
> Voldemort. Snape hasn't said a single word about being a DE yet - 
DD 
> knew this already. He also knows Snape is the eavesdropper - does 
DD 
> say "Oh noes, the eavesdropper was a Death Eater?!". No. He's calm, 
> he's not surprised, he already knew Snape was a DE when Snape was 
> caught outside the door. 

zgirnius:
Alla's suggestion, made elsewhere in this thread, answers the 
objection. If Severus made good his escape by besting Aberforth in 
magical combat (it seems likely he would have no trouble, even at 19-
20, based on both characterizations) this would be when Dumbledore 
realized Severus was a Death Eater, and also that yeah, he probably 
went straight to Voldemort with what he had heard. Hence, no 
suirprise on either point when Severus later comes to him. (He does 
need clarification on what Voldmeort knows, reasonably, that is the 
one thing only Severus can tell him).

It requires inserting one specific indident we were not shown, and 
supposing Dumbledore concealed it from Harry in OotP, but I find it 
at least as reasonable an insertion as the theory I snipped, which 
seems more elaborate to me.

An even simpler alternative – DD had no idea Snape was a DE, and 
believed Snape that he had not heard anything/had no ill intentions. 
Why? Because DD Legilimensed him and failed to detect a lie, without 
realizing that Snape already was an outstanding Occlumens. At some 
later point, Voldemort sent Snape to DD as a messenger, and DD 
realized `Oh crap, he must have been a DE already and may have heard 
the prophecy!' but it was too late to act. That Snape was used as a 
messenger at some point is even suggested by the text.

CathyD posted:
Re: Dumbledore lied to Harry... AGES ago
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/175878
>> Eggplant Gellert Grindelwald said:
>> I still can't quite figure out how Dumbledore knew the exact time 
Harry would evacuate Privet Drive so he could tell Snape so he could 
tell the Death Eaters.

> CathyD replied:
> Personally, I'm blaming it on Hagrid. He went into DD's 
office 'just to > chat' with the old guy's portrait, told him the 
plan, "See, sir, we're still protecting Harry for ya! We've passed a 
fake date to the Ministry, and we're moving him early in case the 
wrong folks get wind of it." Then DD told Snape...etc., etc.

zgirnius:
I love the Hagrid idea! LOL

What I want to know was how Snape got into the office to discuss ghe 
matter with DD in the first place. This was before the fall of the 
Ministry and the Prophet's smear campaign against Harry.