CHAPDISC: DH1, The Dark Lord Ascending

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 175999

---  "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Snape and Yaxley "raised their left arms in a kind
> of salute."  Is this a reference to ... the Nazis, 
> in Deathly Hallows?
> 

bboyminn:

I don't think it is a direct reference. JKR is more 
subtle than that. But, there is the underlying 
symbolism. Nazi made a big deal of the trappings of
superiority, of creating the grand illustion, and
providing hollow symbols people could rally around.

In a broad and indirect sense, I see Voldemort and
that DE's doing the same thing. However, in this 
case what we see is not so much a symbolic 'salute'
as a practical necessity to get past the gate.

> 2.  Saluting the gate with their left arms ..to pass 
> through...  Is this a tacit confirmation that 
> there was indeed a blocking spell on the tower in 
> HBP ..?
> 

bboyminn:

Absolutely. 

> 3.  The peacock at Malfoy Manor is mentioned at least
> twice in the  book.  What is its significance?
> 

bboyminn:

Malfoys seem to be 'old money'. Consequently I think
rather that /flashy/ displays of wealth, they would 
prefer to older, more traditional, and dignified
displays of wealth. Peacock being one of them. I'm
not sure there is a huge underlying significants
or symbolism here, other that we're rich and we 
know it.


> 4.  On the first reading of Deathly Hallows, who did
> you think might  be the person hanging unconscious 
> above the table?
> 

bboyminn:

I didn't bother to think. This reflects the way I read
the books. I'm just along for the ride; I take it as
it comes. It seemed reasonable that it would soon be
revealed, so I just kept reading.

> 5.  Only one person already in the room looks up at
> the unconscious revolving body above the table: Draco
> Malfoy.  Once the body is  resuscitated, he no longer
> looks at her.  Why?
>

bboyminn:

I think Draco is displaying equal parts shame, guilt,
and fear. He can only look at the Professor when she
is unconscious because he is too ashamed to face her
when she is awake. 

I don't think DE's specifically knew Voldemort was
going to kill her, but they certainly knew her fate
would not be a pleasant one. 

> 6.  Voldemort gives Snape the seat of honor at his 
> right hand.  Is  this because Snape is his "right-
> hand man"?  Or is Voldemort "keeping  his friends 
> close, and his enemies closer"?
> 

bboyminn:

I think it is a combination of things. Certainly
Snape has earned that honor by killing Dumbledore,
and it certainly instills envy in the other DE's, 
making them resent Snape and covet his position.
So, in that sense, it is a great motivator. 

But, Snape has now done what Voldemort could not
do; kill Dumbledore. Everyone acknowledges that
Voldemort feared Dumbledore. That makes Snape
situation precarious. I have no doubt that someone
as paranoid as Voldemort, now sees Snape as a 
potential threat. Snape has done what Voldemort
could not do.

Though DE's are generally dumb, and Voldemort is
generally smart, so he takes every opportunity to
remind everyone that Snape was acting on Voldemort's
orders, following Voldemort's plan, so really it's
that same as if Voldemort had 'pulled the trigger'
himself. And that is an illusion, he wants to 
perpetuate both to Snape and to the rest of the DE's.

No need for any independent thinking in this group. 


> 7.  Yaxley's information is different from Snape's.
> Is anyone in the Ministry who is not a member of the
> Order of the Phoenix aware that the Order will move 
> Harry earlier than expected?
> 

bboyminn:

Tough questions. Other have speculated that Scrimgeour
probably knew, and supported that by pointing out that
Scrimgeour came to visit Harry at The Burrow. He seemed
to know Harry was there, and that implies that he was
in on the plan.

Also, not that several member of the Ministry must have
had to help with the protections on the different 
locations. It is said several times that the protections
were place by the Order and the Ministry. Now, you don't
need to know the plan to place the protections. So, I 
think likely only Scrimgeour knew the larger plan. 


> 8...Yaxley suggests that Thicknesse can subjugate the
> other heads of departments at the Ministry to bring 
> down Minister Rufus Scrimgeour.  Was Scrimgeour killed
> by the Imperiused heads of the various departments 
> under Thicknesse's direction?
> 

bboyminn:

I think when the DE's had sufficient control of the
Ministry, they attacked Scrimgeour in mass. Though they
didn't kill him right away. If I remember correctly,
they tortured him first to try and find information on
Harry. Harry was proud that Scrimgeour had gone to his 
death still protecting Harry, and felt a bit of sympathy
toward him.

At that stage, I think there were enough true DE's as
well as those under the Imperius Curse, that it is
difficult to say who struck the final blow.

> 9.  Who is Snape's informant?  Who does Voldemort 
> think it is?  Is it  the same person?
> 

bboyminn:

I'm still puzzled by this. I brought it up before and
the consensus seemed to be that it was Mundungus, but
Voldemort seems to display a subtle confidence in the
informant, and Dung just doesn't seem the type to 
instill confidence in anyone. Still, I can't imagine
who else it could be.

> 10.  Lucius and his family are clearly not happy 
> with Voldemort's presence. Is this because Lucius is
> still disgraced from his botched  mission at the 
> Ministry and his use of the diary Horcrux?  Does 
> their apparent discomfort at the situation foreshadow 
> their lack of involvement in the Battle of Hogwarts?
> 

bboyminn:

I think the Malfoys are like a weather vane, they point
which ever direction the wind blows. But always, in
doing so, their objective is more power and more
wealth. 

For a precious few at the very top of Voldemort regime,
certainly there was going to be plenty of power and
wealth to go around. But anyone of any brains had to
see that Voldemort's regime was going to be an 
economic disaster. 

Voldemort's plan was to subjugate the muggles. Once 
the muggle's became involved, did he really think the
rest of the magical and muggle world was simply going
to roll over and acknowledge Voldemort's superiority.
NOT VERY LIKELY. 

That would mean, in the long run, an economy draining
on-going world wide war with the accompanying trade 
sanctions and embargoes. Which in turn means that all 
of Malfoy's business interests would fall apart. 

While Malfoy probably pictured himself at the top
of the money and power chain. The overall system
would have broken down, meaning less power and
money for everyone. And massive unrest in Britain
and the rest of Europe. 

I can see how the other idiot DE's could fall for
this, but I have to believe that Lucius did not
see Voldemort's return as 'good business'. 

Due to his failures, Lucius has fallen from grace.
He is no longer Crown Prince of the Empire, but now
an errand boy; worse a wandless errand boy.

When the wind was blowing in Malfoy's favor, I 
think he was more than willing to ignore the long
term economic realities, and bask in the power and
glory. But now that he has fallen from grace, and 
the wind blows against him, I think he is starting to
see the long term down side of this whole fiasco. 

Look at the history of the world, and I ask, has
any country that has been conquered by a man like 
this, in this fashion, ever been anything other 
than a total and complete disaster? 

> 11.  Wormtail is described as sitting so low that 
> his chair looks unoccupied. Is this further sign of
> his physical deterioration as seen in HBP?  Is this
> because he would rather not be there?  Is it just 
> that he is a small man?  Or is it symbolic in some
> way?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Wormtail's physical stature has alway been
symbolic of his moral stature. He is not exactly
brave in the traditional sense. I think he is quite
content to stay in the shadows until Voldemort wins,
as it appears he will do, then to step in and grab
what ever power he can. 

So, his near invisibility in this scene is exactly
the way he likes it. He doesn't even like Voldemort
giving him minor little task like quieting the 
prisoners. He wants as much benefit as possible with
as little effort as possible, because 'little effort'
means little risk.


> 12. The Malfoys do not make much eye contact with
> Voldemort.  When Voldemort looks at Snape, other 
> Death Eaters look away.  Are all of the Death Eaters
> at the manor happy with Voldemort's return?
> 

bboyminn:

With the exception of Lucius and Snape, I don't see a
smart DE in the lot. They are generally a bunch of
thugs siding with the biggest bully on the block
because that brings them reflected power, and 
hopefully in the long run, reflected wealth.

They have convinced themselves of the superiority of
pure-blood, but only because the theme suits their
greed and ambition.


> 13.  Snape looks comfortably into Voldemort's eyes 
> when the other Death Eaters turn away. We see an
> example of Voldemort's Legillimency later in the book.
> How strong is Snape's Occlumency?
> 

bboyminn:

Snape is the King of Occlumens. To have carried on the
deception so long in Voldemort's presents, I can't 
believe their is a better Occlumens in the world. 

As far as Voldemort's Legillimency, I think the other
DE are afraid that Voldemort will see their greed and
ambition. And, you know what, I think he does, and 
doesn't care. As long as he can use the DE's to 
achieve his ends, he doesn't care what their motivation
is. 

In fact, I would say for Voldemort's purpose, greed
and ambition are actually better motivators. These
are things he can use to pit them against each other
and keep them struggling to curry his favor. As long
as they are all sucking up to him, they can't be 
plotting against him. 

> 14.  Why does Voldemort praise Bellatrix, then 
> humiliate her?
> 

bboyminn:

This is related to the points I have made up post about
Voldemort. He prefers to pit his players against each
other and keep them desperate to get on his good side.
He teases Bella with favor getting her hopes up, then
dashes them, but also implies a way to regain favor.
As long as he can keep the DE's dancing like puppets 
on a string, he is safe. As soon as they wise up and
start thinking independently and constructively,
he is ...pardon the expression... screwed. 


> 15.  Where were the Lestrange brothers?  
> 

bboyminn:

Don't know, don't care, but I do recall them being
mentioned in passing a couple of times. JKR already
has too many actors on the stage, no need to clutter
it up more.

> 16.  When Harry reviews Snape's memories later in 
> the book, Snape tells Dumbledore he has only watched
> people die whom he could not  save.  Yet he looks 
> dispassionately at Charity Burbage as she pleads and
> cries.  Was Snape lying to Dumbledore?  ..
> 

bboyminn:

Snape is faced with a value judgement. Which is more
valuable, one life, or hundred and hundred of lives?
Soldiers and leaders have to make this value judgement
all the time.

Yes, Snape can save, maybe, Burbage, but at what cost?
Sometimes the life of one is worth the lives of many,
but sometimes the lives of many outweigh the life of
one. It's called war.

> 17.  Voldemort refers to "Mudbloods" as "thieves" of
> the Wizarding World's "knowledge and magic."  This 
> charge is repeated later in the book. Is it possible 
> for a witch or wizard to have her or his magic  stolen?
> Is it possible to steal knowledge without leaving that 
> knowledge for others as well?
> 

bboyminn:

Absurd, even the books present the idea as absurd. If
magic could be stolen, then someone would have figure
it out long ago and muggles would all have magic. 

If knowledge of magic could be stolen, that would be 
quite a different thing. But I severely doubt that you
can take knowledge away other than by memory charm.

I think it is ridiculous to think either can be stolen.

> 18.  When Charity Burbage's body falls to the table,
> several Death Eaters jump back in their chairs.  
> Draco falls off his chair to the floor. Is this 
> symbolic of some Death Eaters not being fully behind 
> Voldemort's agenda?  Or was it simply surprise?
> 

bboyminn:

I think it is symbolic of Voldemort's volitility. Note
later in the book, DE's scramble to get out of the 
room because Voldemort has just been brought bad news.
Those who weren't fast enough we just cut down. How
does Voldemort expect to win, when he is killing off
his best soldier and generals? 

I think they are stunned by Voldemort's sudden casual 
killing, and further shocked because 120 pounds just 
fell from the ceiling.

> 19.  Why are the Purebloods dwindling?
> 

bboyminn:

Stupidity and fate. We have seen the House of Black,
the House of Crouch, and the House of Gaunt end in 
the series. Three ancient pureblood families gone.
If purebloods were determine to continue then they
would do better to enhance foreign relations, so
the pureblood houses from different countries could
intermix.

Since they seem determined to only intermix with 
the British UK families, and the likelihood for a
good match to occur naturally is slim, the Houses
have been diminishing. I think one reason the Malfoys
are so interested in Draco is, that figuratively,
he is their crown prince. If he dies, the House of 
Malfoy dies with him. They have an heir but no spare.

Look at the British Royal family. It is extremely
difficult for them to maintain 'royal' marriages. 
They are having to stretch further and further to
find potential mates, and it seems as if William
and Harry have abandon that idea altogether. 


> 20.  Voldemort has no issues with "pruning" the 
> family tree of undesirables, even though they may be
> pure-blood or half-bloods. Yet, he is displeased
> with Burbage's article and her assertion that the 
> dwindling of Pureblood families is a good thing.  
> ...  He includes himself with the Purebloods here. 
> Does he think his Muggle father's family doesn't 
> count? 
> 

bboyminn:

I don't think you have to be a pure-blood to be a 
pure-blood. I think as long as you can prove some
pure blood, and you actively despise the muggle 
corruption of your ancient and noble blood, that is
close enough.

Note that I believe Hitler had a trace of Jewish 
ancestry in him, that didn't seem to stop him though.


> 21.  Why does Voldemort think that Lucius does not 
> need his wand anymore?
> 
> 22.  Do you think Voldemort is planning on dispensing
> with the Malfoys eventually?
> 
bboyminn:

Lucius has gone from top-of-the-heap to bottom. He is
of little use to Voldemort now. Keep in mind that 
Voldemort only borrowed Lucius's wand, it was Harry 
that snapped it. So, likely had things gone differently
Lucius would have gotten is wand back. Even given how
things did go, at some point, assuming he lived, Lucius
would have simply had a new wand made. 

I suspect, that in a sense, Lucius went from right-
hand-man to just another puppet. So, Lucius does
still have some long term use. As long as Voldemort
can keep dangling power and wealth in front of Lucius,
Lucius would have been as good as any other DE and
smarter than most. 

Also, once Lucius had power and wealth, I'm sure he
would have toed the line. Yet, I'm sure Voldemort
detects Lucius's hesitance and uncertainty. I don't 
think he would have even need Legillemency for that.
So, until Voldemort is completely in power, Lucius 
can never be trusted again. 

> 23.  Voldemort invites Nagini to dine on the corpse 
> of Charity Burbage.  What do you imagine the reactions
> of the others around the table might be?  This idea 
> has been presented in the books before. When do you 
> think Nagini has disposed of the evidence before?  Is
> this part of her value to Voldemort, or is Voldemort 
> giving his pet a treat?
> 

bboyminn:

This somewhat goes against known Snake Lore. Snake never
try to eat anything they can't swallow in one gulp. They
usually swallow a mouse or a frog whole, and slink of 
under a bush for a nap while the food digests.

I simply don't see Nagini, no matter how big she is,
swallowing a whole person. By extension, that implies
that she is biting off chunks and eating them the way
a wolf or lion would. I think that is unusual. 

So, assuming she is eating in the wolfish manner I
describe, it has to be a gruesome sight. Continuing
that theme, I don't see her eating a whole person
even in bites, but that doesn't mean she can't have
a snack before the dispose of the body properly. 

I'm sure the sight of Nagini dining is very intimidating,
and server to re-enforce Voldemort's ruthlessness, and
as a cautionary tale, helps keep the DE's in line.

Well, that is this man's opinion.

Steve/bboyminn