Back to Slytherin House - Choosing

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 176142

> bboyminn:
> 
> I'm in general agreement with LizzyBen. But want to
> point out that we have never seen anyone choose a
> House. Harry never says 'I want to be Gryffindor',
> he only says, 'not Slytherin'. The Hat of it's own
> accord choose Gryffindor.
> 
> In the Epilog, that is essentially what Harry tells
> his son, tell the Hat you don't want to be in 
> Slytherin, which is QUITE different that say he can
> choose which House he wants to be in.

lizzyben:

Yes, you're right, it's a negative choice. You can choose where NOT 
to be, not necesarrily where you will be placed. Because the Hat 
figures that if you're begging not to be into a House, it's because 
that House's character & values are in opposition to your own. So, a 
althletic kid that asks not to be put w/all those bookworms & nerds 
of Ravenclaw is probably not Ravenclaw material in the first place. 
His choice shows who he is.

bboyminn:
> Also, indicating which House you prefer or prefer
> not to be in, does indicate something about your
> inner values. In the end, I don't think The Hat
> assign Houses based on any ideology. If anything
> ideology is a secondary reflection of morally 
> neutral characteristics that are reflected in a 
> negative way. 

lizzyben:

It sure does. People (including me) have complained that Harry never 
faced an internal battle between good & evil, but he actually did - 
he faced the choice between good & evil at eleven years old, and 
chose good. Everything else was just gravy.

The Sorting Hat strongly considered putting Harry into Slytherin 
House, telling him that it would bring him "greatness" - power, 
fame, fortune. Well, after DH we know that JKR considers 
unrestrained ambition & a lust for power to be true evils. DD & 
Snape fall into evil because of their desire for greatness & power. 
The "Elder Wand" symbolizes the ultimate power that various wizards 
want & kill over, and Harry the hero gives up. He worries that 
Hermione & Ron are still tempted by its power, etc.

So, when the Sorting Hat tells Harry that Slytherin can help him to 
achieve greatness, yet Slytherin is also a House of racism - that's 
his temptation to EVIL. If Harry truly wanted "greatness", he'd go 
to Slytherin regardless of the horrible people there.

On the other hand, his new friends, Hagrid & Ron, identify 
themselves as Gryffindors. That's the place where Harry can find 
love & friendship. Harry tells the Hat "NOT Slytherin, NOT 
Slytherin" - in that moment, he chooses friendship & love over 
ambition & power. He has chosen good over evil & proved himself 
a "true Gryffindor." It's a nice metaphor for the series as a whole.

People tend to think that because Harry was "almost a Slytherin", 
that must mean that Slytherins can't be all evil or bad. But I think 
it's actually the opposite - Gryffindor is the good (love, 
friendship), Slytherin is the evil (greatness, power) - and by 
choosing NOT to go into Slytherin, Harry shows that he is truly good 
& "worthy" of becoming a Gryffindor. IMO, THAT'S why JKR included 
that moment of hesitation & doubt. That was Harry's moment to be  
tempted by ambition & greatness, and he resisted the temptation. 
Proving himself to be among the Elect. His choice in that moment 
(NOT Slytherin) *showed* who he was (a boy who values friendship 
more than power). It showed the Hat that Harry belonged among the 
moral elect. It was a predestined choice, as well - Harry, being who 
he is, would never want power over love - so his "choice" to reject 
Slytherin was predestined by his inner character. 

Once you've got the Calvinism down, it's much easier to understand 
how the Sorting Hat works.

bboyminn:
> Personally, I find it misguided to say that Slytherin
> House is uniformly Racist. If that is true then by 
> extension, the entire Aristocracy of Europe are a 
> bunch of pure-blood racists.
> 
> I have said, and still say, that there is nothing 
> inherently wrong with any of the Slytherin 
> characteristics.

lizzyben:

I think JKR might disagree. People try to argue that some Slyth 
traits are neutral - like "ambition" or "cunning." But IMO this is 
probably just because JKR views these traits more negatively than 
others might. In the same way, I like Slughorn, but that might be 
because I don't view his networking as negatively as JKR might. In 
DH, JKR emphasizes again & again the *dangers* of ambition - 
w/Percy, Snape, DD, the Wand. So even though we might not see 
ambition & cunning as a bad thing, IMO JKR does. 

bboyminn:
> The accumulation of negative Slytherin attitudes have
> gradually warped that Slytherin landscape. Now it is
> up to Slytherin attitudes to change for the better, and
> by extension, attitudes /toward/ Slytherins will change
> along with them. 

lizzyben:

They can't change for the better. They're Slytherins. If they had 
the capacity to truly make good choices, they wouldn't have ended up 
in that House in the first place. That's predestination. Slytherin 
House is where the bad people go, the ones who desire power, 
greatness, evil. The Hat looks into their head & sees their destiny.

bboyminn:
> As I said before, Slytherins caused the problem, it's
> up to Slytherins to fix it. Though, to some extent, it
> is up to the rest of the wizard world to provide an 
> atmosphere in which Slytherins are allowed to change.
> 
> As an extension of this last aspect, I don't think
> Mr. Slytherin was quite as racist as he is made out to
> be. 
<snip>
> Other, later wizards, twisted Slytherin's practical
> necessity to their own racist ends. I see the 
> Slytherins we see today as a logical, but not 
> necessarily rational, evolution of Salazar's practical
> necessities. 

lizzyben:

Well, he did place a murderous Basilik into the school to keep out 
Muggle-borns, yes? Not sure that was a practical necessity. 

Steve:
> This isn't really that uncommon. In fact, it has
> happened repeatedly throughout history. It has
> happened to Christians several times, it is now 
> happening to Muslims, and has happened to many other
> groups; a seed to truth is twisted to meet self-serving,
> but generally irrational, ends.
> 
> As terrible as the Slytherin we see are, I refuse to
> accept that they are uniformly evil and racist. I
> can't believe that JKR sees them that way either.
> 
> Just passing it along.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>

lizzyben:

Unfortunately, I believe JKR sees them as just that, and always has. 
Just look at her reaction when she saw that some fans were 
identifying themselves as Slytherins - she was "shocked" 
and even "disturbed!" Like she thought they were identifying with 
Nazis, evil & racism.

The series was always headed towards this climax where the Death 
Eaters take over & start persecuting "Muggle-borns". She was always 
heading toward a finale involving the "Elder Wand" - a symbol of 
ambition and the desire for power & greatness. So she chose the 
qualities of Slytherin House to reflect these later themes - "pure-
bloods" to show that they are the type of bigots who will start 
persecuting "Muggle-borns". "Ambitious & cunning"  to show that they 
are the type of people who desire to achieve power & greatness by 
any means necessary. These are the evils of JKR's worldview, and she 
assigns those evils to Slytherin House. 


lizzyben