Alchemy, the Epilogue and Slytherin (long)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 176218

> Magpie:
> Yeah, and the house has been a generic bully house of people 
> jeering at Harry throughout canon. <snip>

Mike:
Right, JKR needed a generic 'house of bad guys' and she made 
Slytherin fill that role. And for this story, I have no problem with 
that. I'll expound below.


> Magpie:
> It's not like people in other houses don't have problems,
> but I don't see the story as being about showing the danger 
> of all the basic house qualities. Gryffindor recklessness is 
> certainly shown as dangerous, but it doesn't seem bad the way 
> Slytherin is.

Mike:
Well of course that's not what the story was about, I don't know 
anybody who thought it was. But in the next breath you say the story 
does show a Gryffindor trait as dangerous, just not as bad as the 
Slytherin trait of (unadulterated ambition?). So we are talking about 
a matter of degrees here.

Let's compare which dangerous trait caused the most damage between 
Harry and Draco. Draco's ambition to become a DE is realized and he 
introduces other DEs into Hogwarts. It results in one dead on his 
side, (by friendly fire) and one mauled member of the opposition who 
subsequently makes a full recovery. Oh, by the way, Draco was 
directed by his top guy towards all of his actions. But we'll say the 
ultimate cause was Draco's ambition, for the sake of argument.

Harry recklessly goes charging off to the MoM on his saving people 
bravery bent. It results in one dead on his side (by hostile fire), 
several badly injured on his side requiring extensive hospitalization 
but all making full recoveries, and one permanently baby-headed 
member of the opposition.

So, according to canon, which houses trait was more damaging?



> > Debbie:
> > It was Harry's job to purge the cancer that prevented Slytherin 
> > from achieving unity with the other houses.  
> 
> Magpie:
> We know that Harry's job wasn't to unite the houses. The idea that 
> it was his job to purge a cancer that prevented Slytherin from 
> acheiving unity is a theory that seems entirely based on symbolism
<snip>

Mike:
Yes, I believe that was the basis for Debbie's post. She was using 
the Alchemical symbolism.


> Magpie:
> (cont) --for it to be literal I think we'd need to see actual 
> Slytherins changing their minds about blood prejudice that 
> they had before (<snip>).

Mike:
I don't see why. We're talking about purging the cancer that was Tom 
Riddle, at least that's the way I read what Debbie was saying. It was 
Tom Riddle that continued "Salazar Slytherin's noble work" of purging 
the school of Mudbloods. It was Tom Riddle that fomented all the 
latent pure-blood fanaticism. 

As Steve has pointed out in numerous posts, pride in pure-bloodism 
doesn't have to be vindictive. It is possible to be wary of 
Muggleborns and to be concerned for too much change without wanting 
to see all the Mudbloods put to death. But Tom Riddle's brand of pure-
blood mania was a cancer. Not to mention highly hypocritical since he 
was a half-blood himself. Doesn't that just scream mania for the sake 
of directing mayhem, without Riddle believing a word of it himself?


> Magpie:
> <snip>
> 
> Was Voldemort the root of the problem so his destruction will heal 
> the rift? I don't feel confident to say that's true. I really don't 
> see Voldemort specifically set up that way.

Mike:
This is where I disagree with the way you have read the Slytherin 
problem. Because I see Voldemort as the entire reason why Slytherin 
is treated the way it is throughout the whole series.

Tom Riddle starts out as this charmer. Dumbledore said "he had the 
sense never to try to charm me as he charmed so many of my 
colleagues." (HBP p.361) He also explained how he collected a gang 
of "friends" that had a sort of "dark glamour" (p.361-2). In the 
Sluggish Memory we saw how even the older boys had looked up to him. 
And these were the forerunners of the Death Eaters, indeed some 
became the first DEs. That was Riddles first generation of Slytherins 
he corrupted, his own generation.

By the time Riddle returns to Britain to make "Lord Voldemort's 
Request" he has four DEs in tow. And none of these were the same kids 
mentioned in the Sluggy memory. He's building his followers. 
According to Sirius, "they thought Voldemort had the right idea,... 
there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true 
colors, who thought he had the right ideas about things..." (OotP 
p.112) 

We're talking about Riddle's generation and the following generation. 
Riddle is still in the charmer mode, trying to appeal to the masses 
while hiding his true intentions. Dumbledore (and Harry when he saw 
Riddle in action as a youngster) saw how good Riddle was at playing 
this part. And he's targeted Slyhterins, still. All his recruits seem 
to be his housemates and their children, with a few newcomers from 
like-minded backgrounds.

By the time the Sev/James/Lily generation are in school, the 
Slytherins with aspirations towards becoming DEs don't seem to be 
hiding their intentions. Lily chides Sev with, "You and your precious 
little Death Eater friends -- you see, you don't even deny it! You 
don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait 
to join You-Know-Who, can you?" (DH p.675-6) 

But the Slytherins don't have to deny it, because Voldemort hasn't 
completely exposed himself to the WW at large, yet. [Warning: 
Speculation coming] I pictured Riddle starting his reign of terror 
off small. Mostly by eliminating any possible rivals and recruiting 
their followers over to him. That's the way Al Capone did it, and 
that's why there wasn't this hue and cry in the beginning to stop 
him. After all, he was just killing other bad guys. That's what I 
pictured Tom doing. Killing small time Dark Wizards with the Ministry 
looking the other way, secretly grateful that LV has eliminated 
another troublemaker. He might even have come across as this 
vigilante that was officially condemned, but unofficially applauded.

By the time Harry and Draco's generation hit the school, Riddle has 
been exposed to the WW for what he is. But he has previously built up 
this cadre of DEs and like-minded followers that remembered that they 
were winning before GH. Lupin and Sirius told us so in OotP. That is 
part of what the DEs tell their children, Draco's generation. The 
despoilment continues. And what do these DE kids have to compare 
their leader to? An obviously corrupt Ministry, run by power-mongers 
like Crouch or inept bumblers like Fudge that harbor their own latent 
elitisms.

Slytherins were seduced by Tom Riddle, three generations of them. 
That's canon. Horace Slughorn not only fell victim to Riddle's 
charms, he showed Riddle how to influence from behind the scenes (the 
Slug Club). That's canon. The overt opposition to Riddle and the DEs 
was just as cruel as the DEs. That's canon. Dumbledore's opposition 
was mostly underground and secretive, the Slytherins didn't see it, 
didn't hear Dumbledore's message, hell, weren't even told that Riddle 
was a half-blood. That's canon. Why wouldn't they think it was their 
turn to be on top? Where was the cogent opposition to set the 
Slytherins right?

This is the way I read the series and why Slytherin was the *bad guy 
house*. I was told that Voldemort was the ultimate bad guy and that 
most of his followers came from Slytherin. Then I was told how he 
has "always been able to charm the people [he] needed." (CoS p.310) 
And he set out to charm the Slytherins, and it worked.

And from the end of OotP on it became Harry's job to eliminate 
Voldemort, to cut out the cancer of Slytherin. "...And either must 
die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other 
survives..."



> Magpie:
> So Harry might say Snape was brave, but we should fill in ourselves 
> that he's saying he's great because he was also other things 
> Slytherin even though he doesn't say it. <snip>

"Do not think I underestimate the constant danger in which you place 
yourself, Severus. To give Voldemort what appears to be valuable 
information while withholding the essentials is a job I would entrust 
to nobody but you." (DH p.684, pensieve memory)

Does this not speak of Snape's cunning, his ability to fool 
Voldemort? Are you so sure this message was lost on Harry? Harry had 
known since OotP that Snape was spying on Voldemort, he just wasn't 
convinced which side Snape was on, which side was getting the bogus 
information. Harry wasn't going to admire Snape's cunning if it was 
being done on Voldemort's behalf, that's only natural. After this 
memory, I have no doubt that Harry has a new found appreciation for 
Snape's Slytherin quality, because now he knows it was being used for 
his side.


> Magpie:
> But regardless, yes, I see that Harry has dealt with Snape. I'm 
> still not seeing any big meaning for Slytherin/Gryffindor healing 
> here.

Mike:
We aren't suppose to be seeing Gryffindor/Slytherin healing here. We 
are suppose to see healing between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin. And 
we are suppose to see that as a start. At least that's the way I see 
it.


> Magpie:
> Slytherin is not a threat with Voldemort dead. I imagine 
> they've gone through plenty of calm periods throughout history.

Mike:
So Voldemort was the cancer? Conversely, couldn't I also say that 
without Voldemort, Slytherin is no longer the *bad guy house*?

I agree, I imagine that there were periods of turmoil and calm since 
the time of Hogwarts founding. Salazar Slytherin started out as 
friends with Godric Gryffindor. Canon doesn't really explain what 
caused the rift and eventual departure of Slytherin. 

My guess; Slyhterin became demented from practicing too much Dark 
Magic (the kind defined by Red Hen). That's when he put the Basilisk 
in the Chamber of Secrets. From that time onward, various Slytherin 
decendents caused varying amounts of mayhem in the WW. No canon, 
well, I have one example. The story we just read.

Mike