The Fundamental Message.../ Heroes...

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 176313

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <SNIP of the whole post basically>
> > She has a boy unthinkingly head off to his death because 
> > his leader told him to. <SNIP of the whole post>

> >>Alla:
> No, she did not do that. Canon was cited several times, if needed I 
> will link to that again. She had a boy going off to his death, 
> because he did not want others to die, she had a boy to do it 
> **despite** what this boy considered to be the said leader's       
> personal betrayal of him.
> <snip>
> Harry **thought** about that plan before he went to fulfill it. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
"Lying with his face pressed into the dusty carpet of the office 
where he had once thought he was learning the secrets of victory, 
Harry understood at last that he was not supposed to survive." [DH 
scholastic p.691]

"He had never questioned his own assumption that Dumbledore wanted 
him alive. [ibid p.692]

"And Dumbledore had known that Harry would not duck out, that he 
would going to the end, even though it was *his* end..." [ibid p.693]

Harry never once questions Dumbledore's plan.  His thoughts are all 
about how Dumbledore is right, and isn't this sad, but I'm a brave 
boy so here I go.  It is, IMO, the very definition of *not thinking*.

I would have much preferred that Harry come to the "I must die" 
conclusion *on his own* rather than hearing it from his dead 
headmaster.  I'd have also preferred he face arguments *against* it 
than all of his dead loved ones coming round to cheer him on. 

There are a series of articles on DH by Daniel Hemmens that do an 
excellent job pointing out exactly what I had problems with, and in 
one of them he says this:

"Having seen in the pensieve that Dumbledore intended for him to be 
killed by Voldemort, he [Harry] immediately decides to lay down and 
die. Rowling, apparently, views this as the height of courage. The 
act of a True Gryffindor. I view it as utterly craven."
http://www.ferretbrain.com/articles/article-149.html

I completely agree.  Rather than making decisions on his own, Harry 
follows instructions.  Which, IMO, means he never really becomes a 
man.  Certainly not his own man, anyway.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > I mean, IMO the entirety of DH was us watching Harry
> > sit around *not* thinking. It was weird. I still
> > don't get what JKR was going for there.

> >>bboyminn:
> Odd that you would say that, since, and I'm sure many
> will agree, we saw nothing BUT Harry sitting around
> thinking thinking thinking. For someone who allegedly
> doesn't think, he certainly seemed spend a lot of his
> time pondering the mysteries before him, reached a lot
> of important conclusions, and make critical decisions.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yeah, I didn't get that from DH.  The few times Harry did make plans 
they were poorly thought out and very much dependent on luck and the 
author making it so.  The complaints that sent Ron running were truth 
based, IMO.  Harry kind of sat around and waited for information to 
fall into his lap.  Fortunately (or, thanks to JKR) the information 
did fall.  But that was luck, not reason.

> >>bboyminn:
> <snip>
> You keep mentioning that there was no Slytherin banner
> in the Room of Requirements. OK, by a show of hands,
> how many people expected there to be a Slytherin
> banner in the Room of Requirements? Really? How many
> people /hoped/ there would be a banner there? Really?
> Amazing how few hands were raised.

Betsy Hp:
Obviously you were looking in the wrong direction. <bg>  There were 
*plenty* of people who expected House Unity to be important to the 
end.  Goodness, going by the number of folks doing everything 
possible to show how Slytherin *was* unified with the other houses 
based on various symbols and future possibilities, the number of 
people raising their hands are legion.

> >>bboyminn:
> Now let me ask, whose fault is that? I say it is
> Slytherin's fault for not having the courage to
> step away from the crowd and take a stand.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, Steven, I got that.  The only good Slytherin is a dead Slytherin 
and they're all craven and cowardly and should be beaten every day 
and twice on Sunday to try and drive the demons out.  JKR made all of 
this quite clear.

> >>bboyminn:
> <snip>
> The books can only present just so much information.
> JKR has to stay focused on the central path of the
> story, and not clutter it up with distractions and
> diversions from the objective she knows is coming.
> There are dozens of side stories that fan would
> have like to have seen, but the story has to
> tread the straight and narrow path to its purpose,
> and that means minor threads get left out. That's
> just life.

Betsy Hp:
Well, no that's not life, that's story-telling.  Life is actually 
quite complex. <bg>  But yes, you're right, JKR left the "unity" 
story on the cutting room floor.  I was under the mistaken impression 
that the "Unity" story *was* the central objective.  I was horribly 
wrong.  This story is more about sticking it to them what cross you.  
Which, okay, not my cuppa.  But to be fair to myself, and as you 
admit yourself, the "Unity" idea didn't come out of nowhere.  JKR did 
kind of meander in that direction a time or two.  (Again, I think 
this is why there's been such strong attempts made to sort of crow-
bar a "unity" story into this one.)

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > The reason I bring this up is that this is how, pre-DH, I saw the
> > relationship between Dumbledore and Snape. That Dumbledore got to
> > know Snape well enough (his driving principles, etc.), that he
> > trusted him in the truest sense of the word. Instead, it seems
> > that Dumbledore trusted Snape's demons. Which is not that same   
> > thing, IMO.

> >>zgirnius:
> Your mileage obviously varies. What I saw in DH was Snape's driving
> principles forming/changing in front of Dumbledore's eyes over the
> course of sixteen years.
> <snip>
> When he admitted to Snape during HBP that he had been deceived for 
> fifteen years, and assigned him the task of telling Harry he must  
> die, he was relying on Snape's principles.

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, I thought it was more Dumbledore relying on Snape's inability to 
trust his own "disgusting" judgement.  Snape was actually 
remarkably... obedient, IMO, in DH.  Instead of relying on his own 
judgment he followed the orders of a portait.  Again, thinking for 
oneself seems to go against how JKR sees her world.  It's 
Dumbledore's cult-of-personality or you're evil.

Betsy Hp (procrastinating in the *worst* way)