Dumbledore and other leaders

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 179501

bboyminn: 
> I don't think we are so much disagreeing on this issue as
> we are merely looking a different aspects of it. You made
> some very good points within the bounds of your perspective,
> but I think there are aspects that you and your perspective 
> are ignoring. (Most likely there are aspect my perspective
> is ignoring too.)
<snip>

Dana:
Sure, your probably right but I do not ignore the possibility of 
danger and that you can't prepare for everything all the time. Things 
can go differently then you initially planned them to go but to me 
you ignoring the fact that setting up a group with information on how 
to do something and then tell the enemy what you told your group to 
do would be considered treason and any general doing such a thing 
would be courtmarshaled and not praised for betraying his own forces.

That is my point which is in my opinion different from sending your 
troops into enemy territory and estimating that there his a high 
probability that people will die when facing an enemy in a combat 
situation.

bboyminn:
> Again, while you have made some good general points, on this
> particular point I have to disagree. Corruption in the Ministry
> had made sure Harry would be captured if you used Floo or 
> Apparation to escape. That left walking, riding (in a car), or
> flying. Walking and riding in a car are too slow and too easily
> overcome. I'm not saying plans couldn't have been made that
> involved them, only that those plans are as risky or more risky
> than any other. Regardless of our opinion, Dumbledore and the 
> Order weighed the options and selected flying. Was it right or
> was it wrong, we and they can only know for sure after the
> fact.
<snip>

Dana:
To me, you seemed to be missing the point that if LV wouldn't have 
known the precise date and time of Harry's departure, the probability 
of encountering large numbers of DE would have been minimum too. 
There would just be one or two on the lookout which would be easier 
to overcome then a large group and LV himself. The Order was also 
very aware of this risk and didn't need DD's intervention to come up 
with a strategy that would minimize the risk for Harry. Knowing the 
risk is still an advantage point and taking a couple of DEs by 
surprise because they didn't expect the operation to be pushed 
forward is still an advantage point too. 

The Order wasn't aware that LV was in the know about the plans (most 
especially the date and time) and thus it put the advantage in LV's 
lap and not the Order. The Order went ahead with this operation with 
the idea that they were taking the lead but they were betrayed and 
someone died as a direct result of this betrayal. 
In my opinion and I am very aware that this is from my perspective, 
you are missing the point that there is a difference between the 
acceptance of the dangers a specific operation could pose and plan 
accordingly or being set up and led into an ambush because your 
dearest leader thought it necessary to betray your plans to the 
enemy. 

In RL War, yes operations are lost because the enemy received 
intelligence about your plans. There is always a risk for information 
leaks (which is why false leaks are pretty much necessary to confuse 
the enemy to which information is genuine and which is false) but 
when the leak is discovered that person will not endure the 
gratification of being such a wonderful, intelligent and above all a 
good person. He will probably be hanged or shot as a traitor. Of 
course it is very convenient that DD is already death anyway. 

My problem is not with the plan and the probability of risks but with 
the idea that DD's betrayal is put forward by some (readers) that 
this would be an okay war strategy or that it would be okay to betray 
your own if it has a bigger purpose, especially in the so-called name 
of good, no it is not. It was unnecessary because Snape already was 
in LV's good grace for killing DD and so he could have requested the 
position as headmaster and gotten it anyway. 

But in other words when Marietta betrayed Harry, it wasn't okay and 
she needed to be punished like a traitor but when DD actually sells 
out the Order and hand feeds them to LV it is somehow okay because 
his intentions were good. Sorry betrayal is betrayal. Otherwise we 
could say it was a good thing Peter betrayed his friends because in 
the end it is all justified when Harry vanquishes LV.  Where do we 
draw the line when it comes to betrayal? Is intention all it takes to 
consider a betrayal a good thing? Well sorry this isn't working for 
me, DD's so-called good intentions got a lot of people killed. JKR 
seems to have the idea that as long as you have remorse that whatever 
you do is okay and to me it is not.  Making an mistake and deeply 
regretting your mistake is one thing, continually making mistakes 
that cost people their life's is unforgivable, no matter how 
remorseful you say your are. 

bboyminn:
> Now let's address Dumbledore's alleged betrayal. According to
> Moody there were very likely DE's paroling the area, and when
> Harry's protective enchantment broke, they, the DE's, were
> very likely to come swooping in. So, the attack was inevitable.
> 
> What Dumbledore did was take an inevitable attack and turn it
> to his advantage. Knowing an attack was coming, he did his
> best to confuse the enemy. Snape telling Voldemort of the 
> attack didn't change whether it was going to happen, it only
> changed the timing a little. And, the Seven Potter's more
> than offset whatever timing advantage the DE's might have had.

Dana:
That is not what he says he did it for. What he says in the Prince 
Tale chapter is that there is no other way if they want to prevent 
the Carrow's to rule Hogwarts. There is no bit where the focus is 
predominantly on getting Harry to a safe place and minimizing the 
risk. DD's plan for the 7 Potters (or actually Snape's) was to 
minimize the risk of the plan to get Snape into the headmaster's 
position. Nothing more nothing less. 

***

"You will have to give Voldemort the correct date of Harry's 
departure from his aunt and uncle's," said Dumbledore. "Not to do so 
will raise suspicion, when Voldemort believes you so well informed. 
However, you must plant the idea of decoys; that, I think, ought to 
ensure Harry's safety. Try Confunding Mundungus Fletcher. And 
Severus, if you are forced to take part in the chase,
be sure to act your part convincingly. . . I am counting upon you to 
remain in Lord Voldemort's good books as long as possible, or 
Hogwarts will be left to the mercy of the Carrows. . . "

***

bboyminn:
> Also, note that the Order knew that Snape was spying on 
> Voldemort. The Order would have had to be addle minding not
> to understand that information and misinformation flowed both
> ways. They may or may not have specifically known about L-V
> being informed of the date of the attack. It seems not, but
> again, General's never confide everything to their troops. 
> Each is inclined to know as much as the General feels he needs
> to know to do his job. 

Dana:
So to whom of the Order would Snape be talking too, all assumed he 
killed DD and so he actually wouldn't have been able to retrieve this 
information for the simple fact that he actually would be AKed on 
sight if they ever encountered him. Besides I think you are reversing 
the chronological sequence of what happened. It was not the plan 
leaking out and so LV getting wind of it but the plan being seeded 
into the Order to ensure LV's trust in Snape.  

DD misused the Order's plan to move Harry, to execute a plan of his 
own of which he did not inform the Order and so instead of trying to 
decrease the risk levels to ensure Harry's safety, he willingly 
increased it to ensure Snape's position. If it hadn't been for 
Harry's wand miraculously taking charge on its own accord then Harry 
would have been killed (although of course he could not because he 
could not die as long as LV was alive thus only putting Order Members 
at risk of dying anyway which DD also knew all along) 

You still keep holding on to the idea that a general has every right 
to betray his own troops by leading them into an ambush but I'll 
assure you that if a general, who would leak information to the enemy 
like DD did, that he would be shot or hanged for treason. 

It isn't about keeping secret the various operations you have going 
on, on different positions along the frontline, from spreading out 
like next days gossip and so increase the risk of your enemy finding 
out what you are up to. It is deliberately informing you enemy of 
your plans and thus leading your troops willingly into an ambush. 
Even if a specific battalion has the objective to distract the enemy 
so you can perform a different  operation in absolute secrecy then 
those troops you send out to distract the enemy know their objective 
and what is asked of them to do, even if they have no further 
intelligence about the operations planned for other battalions or 
assault troops. You are confusing the idea about keeping intelligence 
under raps as much as possible to keep the enemy guessing to actually 
sending a fax to the enemy where you are going to try to penetrate 
their defenses so they can enforce their strong hold.  

Sorry to snip the rest I think I have made my point and if you 
disagree then I guess we just do better to agree to disagree on what 
are considered real war tactics and what is considered putting your 
own forces at unnecessary risk by betraying the time/date they are 
going to move. I do not care if DD suggested the Order should use a 
decoy to give Harry some insurance in this plan. The main objective 
was still Snape's position and not Harry's safety because if LV would 
not have know the time and date of when Harry was going to be moved 
the danger would still have been less due the minimum of DEs that 
would actually notice Harry's departure. There are many ways that 
would have ensured Harry's departure to have gone unnoticed. For 
instance polyjuicing Harry and another Order Member into one of the 
Dursleys. 

In my opinion Snape already had enough credit with LV by killing DD 
and so it was absolutely unnecessary to ensure his position once 
more. Especially because in logical terms the murderer of the leader 
of the opposition would not have been able to move around his old 
acquaintances unnoticed and actually get such information to begin 
with. The ministry wasn't overtaken by then and so Snape was still as 
much wanted as LV himself. Snape would actually have been useless as 
a spy because everybody would believe that he was a loyal DE. 

JMHO

Dana