How do the books affect children? (was: Why down on all the characters?)

[stephab67]

No: HPFGUIDX 179525

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lenore <lmkos at ...> wrote:

> Lenore:
What really gave me a chill about the books was knowing that
they were being read by massive numbers of children-- children
who do not have the capability to read the books critically, and
therefore do not make a choice about what kind of message
gets under their unconscious radar.  The books make a strong
impact on adults, too, as have most of us experienced, so we
can just imagine how strongly a child's mind is influenced.

Stephanie:
The HP series is one that both kids and adults can enjoy.  A parent
can certainly (and probably should) read them and discuss the themes
of the story with them.  Several good friends of mine have youngish
children who have read the books, and my friends have read them as
well.  They've discussed the books with their kids.  Sounds like a
great way to bond with your kids, doesn't it?

Lenore: 
Because of this, children need books of a higher tenor, imo;
books that might inspire them to see what is possible for humanity,
books that give them some kind of model (at least some of the time)
for integrity and character development.  In that sense, for me, the
books are impoverished.

Stephanie:
I respectfully disagree.  The fact that her good characters are flawed
and make mistakes is one of the strongest parts of the series for me.
 I think it's a great point of discussion for parents whose children
have read the books to analyze - what do you think of the choices the
characters have made?  What do you think of their behavior?  They are
the good characters, but does that mean that they are always good? As
I stated earlier, I think she's trying to make the point that even
good people do things that aren't so great.  Having characters that
are too perfect doesn't really teach anyone anything, and kids can't
identify with perfect people, anyway.

Lenore: 
Kids don't need to know everything about "what's it's really like"
in our dysfunctional world or in a fictional world that is similar in
many ways, a world where nothing seems to work and where the
"good" guys seem to have little awareness about how they treat
one another.  The books can be great for somewhat older kids
who *also* have an understanding parent to accompany them
through the books and encourage them to ask questions.
I can't see any benefit for younger children age 6-9.

Steph:
Again, I disagree.  Why do you want to shield your children, even
younger ones, from what's happening?  Isn't it better to help them to
get an understanding of the world, that not everything is wonderful in
 the world?  I'm not saying that you let them see everything, but you
can't shelter them too much.  

I also don't agree that the main characters "have little awareness of
how they treat one another."  Harry breaks up with Ginny because he
doesn't want Voldie to go after her.  Ron finally gets over his
immaturity and his insecurities, and becomes more valuable to the
Horcrux hunt.  He comes up with the ghoul idea so his family won't get
targeted by the DEs.  Hermione has nothing but Harry's  (and Ron's)
welfare in mind the entire time in DH, and makes it so her parents
won't be harmed.  The Weasleys are always a positive part of Harry's
life.  DD and Snape have questionable ethics, but I don't think you
can accuse them of not having awareness of how they are treating
people.  And, btw, the children of my friends all began reading the
books when they were younger than nine and the series definitely has
value for them.  They'll no doubt re-read the entire series when they
are older so they get more out of it, but it's still an exciting story
for the younger ones.

Lenore: 
There's a part of me that holds out a slender hope that there is
something more in the books that I may have missed, something
that might be useful and enduring.  What blights that hope are all
those comments made by the author about using the books to
get petty revenge on whoever, and the stark separating of people
into groups of "us" and "them", and "in-group" vs "outies".  

Steph:
I don't understand what you mean about JKR using the books to get
petty revenge on various groups.  Shall I assume you mean that she
doesn't like Team Voldie, and the Slytherins who go along with them? 
She was trying to draw parallels between Team Voldie and their
pureblod mania, and the Nazis, with the Muggles, Muggleborn, and their
sympathizers as the victimized groups (Jews and everyone else who the
Nazis thought should be exterminated). Tolerance of different people
(and creatures) was a major theme from CoS, where Muggleborns were
being attacked.  Draco calls Hermione a "dirty little Mudblood" and
then later hopes that more Mudbloods are killed, especially Hermione.
 He constantly mocks Ron because his family are blood traitors. Sirius
is zapped off the Black family tree because he doesn't go along with
his family's obsession with pure blood.  Umbridge bans anyone who
isn't totally human from getting jobs.  Etc.

I don't know how anyone could take the side of Team Voldie, believing
that somehow they were the ones being victimized.  How so?  Were the
Nazis being victimized?  Was Hitler just misunderstood?  I don't think
so.  As far as the Slytherins are concerned, clearly not all of them
were evil: Snape, for example; Slughorn fights for the good side, and
many just don't participate at all, which is better than fighting for
Voldie. She even had Narcissa covering for Harry at the end, even if
it was for selfish motives, which shows she wasn't totally evil. 
Draco has a hard time doing what Voldie tells him to do.  JKR wrote
him pretty sympathetically in DH, I thought.  In any case, it's a
story about good and evil, so someone's got to be on the evil side,
otherwise no story.  Maybe the comparison wasn't as elegant as it
could have been but I understood her point.  

Lenore:
Yes, they accept the hidden messages much less critically
than adults.  They accept the inconsistency in values which
has been pointed out by many of our posters here.  Just
like the ugliness in TV and movies, their minds take it all in,
indiscriminately, hook, line and sinker, and many aspects
of their lives are ultimately shaped by what they think and
perceive and ACCEPT, as children.

Steph:
I think you're selling kids too short. They get more than people think
they do.  I'm a teacher, and I see that they have much better insight
into things than people think.  They just look at things differently
than adults.  And, again, here's where parents come in.  They need to
pay attention to what their kids are reading and watching.  It's part
of the job.

Lenore:
I suppose standards are low for children for the same reason that
standards are low for adults (in TV, movies, books). I've run across a
few books "written for kids" that truly make my mind reel with horror.
 I have worked closely with children with emotional disturbances and/or
learning disabilities and other kinds of fear reactions, so I've
had some experience. 

Steph:
I agree with you that there are too many books, TV shows, and movies
that have low standards, for both adults and kids. Would I be right in
stating that you think that the standard of the HP series is low?  If
so, I also would disagree.  Regardless of your like or dislike of the
series, you have to agree that JKR doesn't patronize her readers and
trusts that they can handle the concepts she lays out in them, or else
we wouldn't be discussing them here.  And btw, I teach freshman
history in an urban school where most of my students are below grade
level; I also have about fifty special ed students whose issues range
from minor learning disabilities to emotional/behavioral issues and
traumatic brain injuries, so I understand where you are coming from.

Lenore:
I also have a kind of empathic sensitivity and attunement to what
children are feeling and experiencing, and there's too much in the
books that I don't want them to feel and experience at such young ages.

Steph:
There's nothing wrong with that. You can certainly recommend to those
parents that their children wait until they are older to read the
books, and to read them along with their children so they can discuss
them.  No one's forcing anyone to read HP. And as I've said elsewhere,
I don't think the books are perfect, but I don't think they are as bad
or evil as some think they are.