How do the books affect children? (was: Why down on all the characters?)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 179602

> Steph:
> I never once said Harry wasn't important.  I said he wasn't always 
> popular. Huge difference.  There are many people who are important 
> who aren't popular.  I'm suggesting that Harry wasn't always one 
of 
> the "cool kids" until HBP.  And yes, I do say that he became 
popular 
> in that book.  Everyone at school new why Harry was important, it 
> doesn't however mean that they wanted to be his friend.  You can 
> also appreciate someone for their sporting skills but not want to 
be 
> friends with them.  

Magpie:
To be honest, I don't think you could ever say that Harry wasn't one 
of the "cool kids" given his level of fame. Who are the cool kids in 
his class? There are none in the fashion of American high school or 
American high school movies, and never were. There's no one crowd 
you can point to who represent the social elite in Harry's class. 

But Harry does just fine socially. Okay, maybe you think somebody 
can be unpopular even though everyone cheers "We got Potter!" at the 
prospect of his becoming a member of their house. Or that being the 
school sports hero doesn't connect with what what'd we'd call being 
popular. 

But who in Harry's class is particularly cooler than he is even in 
his first year? He seems perfectly well-liked in his dorm (certainly 
he's above the social scale of unpopular Neville and Hermione), he's 
accepted onto the Quidditch team with older students. (At least one 
student in his class is jealous of how everybody "thinks he's so 
great.") It's far more usual for Harry to be approached by others 
than for him to approach them. He himself is never in a position 
where he's approaching someone hoping to make a friend and gets the 
brush off or gets rejected. His circle of intimate friends is 
somewhat limited, as is everyone else's, but unpopular? I'm not 
seeing it. 

> Magpie: 
> > His importance doesn't come from how many people are in his 
> circle. 
> 
> Steph:
> I know.  That's what I said.  Again, importance isn't the same 
thing 
> as popularity.  Harry doesn't have a lot of friends up to HBP.  
You 
> can even say that everyone in the DA wasn't his friend, but they 
> recognized his value as a Dark Arts teacher.  That doesn't mean 
that 
> he's their friend.

Magpie:
But you also said he wasn't "one of the cool kids," which also 
doesn't have to do with the number of friends you have so you're 
conflating the two as well. Harry has a perfectly reasonable amount 
of friends, and plenty more people who feel well towards him from 
outside the people he chooses to hang around with the most. I can't 
think of a single time when Harry tries to initiate a friendship 
with someone and is turned down. There's no indication that his 
friendships are limited due to the disinterest or dislike of others, 
like with Neville or Luna. 

It just seems like you're having to cancel out a whole lot of times 
where people are drawn to Harry to make him unpopular. The secret 
army that appoints him their leader and leaps to defend him? Just 
using him as a Dark Arts teacher. Can't be counted as a social 
contact at all. And can't show any sort of popularity even though 
many individuals in the group actually do express positive feelings 
about Harry himself. 
 
> Magpie:
> The fact remains when it came to connections, it was Ron who made 
a 
> good one in that scene and not Harry. 
> 
> Steph:
> Just because he made a good connection doesn't mean he went 
> *looking* for a connection.  I never got the impression that Ron 
had 
> that motive.  Draco was certainly looking for that, but Ron 
wasn't.  


Magpie:
Actually, the first time Draco meets Harry and chats him up he's not 
necessarily looking for a "good" connection either--he doesn't know 
who Harry is and still tries to talk to him. The second time he's 
come looking for Harry Potter because it would be cool to have him 
as a friend, but then so does Ron arrive saying, "Is it true you're 
Harry Potter?" They're only 11 here and not all that up to 
sophisticated social machinations but they both think it's neat to 
meet Harry Potter in different ways--I would include Ron in that 
too. I don't think Ron's some big social climber or manipulator, but 
I think he wants to meet Harry Potter (his sister's in love with him 
even before meeting him, it seems, but in this case that counts).

Steph:
> Again, I make a distinction between being important and being 
> popular.

Magpie:
We both, it seems, connect being popular with being "cool." I think 
Harry is important (savior of the world), cool (celebrity, savior or 
the world, sports star, hero, notorious dark wizard) and popular 
(generally liked by his schoolmates, never having his own overtures 
for friendship rejected, recognizing those who actually are 
unpopular unlike himself, his friendship sought by others, his 
sexual interest sought by others, including two of the most popular 
and sought-after girls that we know of). Honestly, I think JKR has 
made sure to make Harry basically cool throughout canon--and it's 
not like she doesn't know how to write social outcasts. She does 
them with Neville and Luna and Myrtle and Snape. I think the only 
change in HBP is that Harry's attractiveness has a sexual component 
and that's it. 

-m