In Defense of Scrimgeour & Offense against DD

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 179617

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" <lizzyben04@> 
wrote:
> > 
> > Oh, yeah, DD is chilling. I love how he says that by the time he 
> > managed to extract her memory, Hokey's life was almost over. 
LOL, 
> > yeah, and by the time Voldemort managed to extract Bertha 
Jorkins' 
> > memory, her life was almost over too. DD's actually technically 
> > telling the truth, but in such a misleading way that it becomes 
a 
> > lie. 
> 
> Mus:
> It's The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, isn't it? 

lizzyben:

It totally is. No one ever suspects the narrator! The truth was 
there all along, hidden in plain sight. It's so... insidious, isn't 
it? JKR scares me a little.

Carol:

As for keeping Tom Riddle's crimes a secret, DD didn't. He obtained
those memories from Morphin and Hokey and tried to persuade the
Ministry of their innocence. Unfortunately, both of them died soon
afterwards (unlike Lizzyben, I don't believe that DD's attempts to
obtain the true memories had anything to do with it--after all, it
didn't hurt Slughorn to trick him into giving Harry the correct
memory)

lizzyben:

But you must see that the situations are totally different? 
Slughorn's memories aren't hidden, & no one has modified his memory. 
Slughorn knows perfectly well what happened & can therefore 
be "tricked" or persuaded into giving Harry that memory. It's 
totally different w/Bertha Jorkins, Morfin & Hokey. All of them had 
their real memories wiped clean - they have no idea what really 
happened, & have no conscious memory of certain events. Therefore, 
they can't be "tricked" or persuaded into handing over those 
memories - they simply don't remember these events anymore. In order 
to get these memories, a wizard would have to use magic to break the 
memory charm that had been placed on them & access the real 
memories. As Voldemort did to extract Jorkins' real memories, & DD 
did to extract Hokey & Morfin's real memories. They even used the 
same phrase to describe the process - *extraction* of memories (not 
persuasion, sharing, or anything voluntary).

Also, in passing, DD never mentions trying to absolve Hokey.

Carol responds:

You're comparing apples and oranges here. No Memory Charm was placed
on Morfin or Hokey. Tom simply placed his own memory of killing the
Riddles and/or Hepzibah into their heads without destroying or
replacing the true memory. Just as the true memory was still in
Slughorn's mind (and easily accessible by Slughorn himself under the
right conditions), all DD needed to do was access the true memory and
painlessly remove it from Morfin's and Hokey's heads. (Both he and
Snape do the same thing to themselves rather frequently with no ill
effects. There's no Memory Charm to break.

lizzyben:

No, they are the same thing. In HBP, as they discuss Hokey, Harry 
says, "Voldemort modified her memory, just like he did with 
Morfin!"  "Yes, that is my conclusion too," said Dumbledore. (439) 
So DD says that LV *modified her memory*. DD agrees that LV modified 
the memories of both Hokey & Morfin.

Going back to LV's statement about Jorkins - "We could have modified 
her memory? But Memory Charms can be broken by a powerful wizard, as 
I proved when I questioned her. It would be an insult to her memory 
not to use the information I extracted from her, Wormtail." (GOF 10)

So "Memory Charms" = memory modification - the two terms are 
synonymous. That's what was done to Bertha Jorkins, Hokey & Morfin. 
DD & LV say that all these individuals had their memories modified, 
& LV says that this modification is done through a memory charm. 
This charm/modification can be broken by a powerful wizard (with 
some regrettable side effects), and the real memory can then be 
extracted.

I don't understand how you're saying that LV didn't destroy or 
replace Morfin's real memories? DD says that Morfin never realized 
that he wasn't the one who had murdered the Riddles, meaning that 
Morfin didn't remember being stunned instead by Voldemort. Also, DD 
doesn't say that the real memory was "easily, painlessly 
accessible," as you've stated - in contrast, he says that it took "a 
great deal of skilled Legimency to coax it out of him", & he says 
(twice!) that the memory was obtained with "enormous difficulty." He 
says that Morfin himself never knew the truth, and that his *real* 
memory could only be reached by "skilled Legimency". IOW, Morfin, 
like Bertha Jorkins, had no concious memory of the real event that 
he had witnessed, because that memory had been erased & replaced 
through memory modification.

Quoting canon now:

Harry - "And Mofin never realized he hadn't done it?"
"Never" said Dumbledore. ...
"But he had this real memory in him all the time!"
"Yes, but it took a great deal of skilled Legimency to coax it out 
of him. ... I was able to secure a visit to Morfin in the last weeks 
of his life, by which time I was attempting to discover as much as I 
could about Voldemort's past. I extracted this memory with 
difficulty." (HBP 367)

Note the direct relationship in DD's statement between his visit, 
the memory extraction, & Morfin's death. That same relationship is 
repeated in his statement about Hokey - "by the time I traced her & 
mamged to extract this memory, her life was almost over." So - DD 
visit, memory extraction, death. He's practically confessing here!

Carol:
Carol, who thinks that the efforts to absolve Morfin and Hokey should
be chalked up on the list of DD's *good* deeds or at least as acts
with good intentions which unfortunately failed (like Harry's attempt
to save Sirius Black)

There is absolutely no evidence that DD "damaged their minds and
bodies beyond repair." Morfin had been in Azkaban, no health spa, and
Hokey was already ancient. In contrast, LV says stragiht out that he
*murdered* Bertha, and she shows up among the people AK'd with his 
wand.

lizzyben:

Oh, I don't know, they both seemed to last pretty long in Azkaban, 
didn't they? An old elf & a mad man survived for many years in 
Azkaban, only to die right after Dumbledore's little inquisition. 
Why did the text tell us, twice, that they both died shortly after 
DD's questioning? I don't believe in coincidences & I think that 
this information is included for a reason. JKR is clearly laying out 
the clues & parallels for readers to follow - memory modification, 
difficult memory extraction, death. That is what happened to Bertha 
Jorkins, Hokey and Morfin Gaunt.

One last piece of evidence: In HBP, Harry watches many other 
memories in the Pensieve, from Dumbledore, MOM official Bob Ogden, 
Burke, etc. But these people didn't die right after DD collected the 
memories. What's the difference?  Ogden & Burkes' memories weren't 
modifed by Voldemort - they had memories of Merope, & LV hadn't 
ever erased or replaced those memories. Thus, these memories could 
be easily accessed w/o ill effect. In contrast, Voldemort *did* use 
powerful charms to modify & replace Hokey & Morfin's memories. So 
accessing their real memories took great difficulty & skill on DD's 
part - and both died shortly after DD's questioning. Just as 
Voldemort needed powerful magic to get past Bertha Jorkin's memory 
modification & access her real memories - and she was damaged beyond 
repair in the process. This isn't me making up some loony theory 
here. IMO the clues & parallels are clearly and intentionally laid 
out in HBP - I just can't believe I didn't see it sooner. 



lizzyben