Whom did Dumbledore torture and killed? WAS: Re: re:Scrimgeour/WerewolfBites

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 179778

Alla:
> And it would be really helpful if you could specify what past
> Behavior of Dumbledore is known to Harry. As in whom did he kill
> that Harry knows?. Surely Ariana would not count as one he tried to
> avoid to but could not?

Magpie:
I think it's the same behavior we all know about. I don't think Harry
is accusing him of any particular murder, or of any murder at all.
He's taking the long view of Dumbledore's actions throughout the
years and they have led to some people dying. Dumbledore has never
claimed to be opposed to any deaths in the fight against Voldemort.
As far as I can see they're just making the same claim they made
about Moody, that he tried to bring 'em back alive. But I suspect
Rowling realized it would be unrealistic to act like Dumbledore ran
his side of the war above such ugly realities as death, especially
since he and Harry are having this conversation in the afterlife,
with Harry having found out that Dumbledore's plan involved his own
death. But that's okay, because Dumbledore only planned on Harry's
death because it couldn't be avoided.

Alla:

But the whole interpretation of Harry accusing Dumbledore of only 
killing when he could have avoided it should have a ground of Harry 
**knowing** that Dumbledore killed, only when he could not avoid it, 
no?

Or are you now arguing that Harry just **guessed** that Dumbledore 
killed and just makes an assumption?

What I am saying that partially because Harry knows nothing about 
Dumbledore killing anybody, I interpret this scene as I interpret it -
 Dumbledore did not kill since he always avoided it.


Having said that, I certainly grant you the point of Dumbledore's 
willing to sacrifice Harry himself.

If I was absolutely sure that Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice 
Harry, I would concede the point. The thing is I am not. I mean, on 
my good days I am not. I believe on my good days that Dumbledore was 
as sure as he could be that Harry would not die.

I mean I am not always sure about it, but since I have doubts, I 
cannot count Harry's death as something Dumbledore was willing to do 
if he could not avoid it.

So, back to my point. You are saying that they are talking about 
behavior of Dumbledore they are both aware of, are you not?

And I do not see Harry being aware of ANY Dumbledore's behavior that 
leads to killing people. Guessing? Sure, why not. But being aware? 
Not to me.


In fact we have Minerva saying that he won't use the means Voldemort 
uses. Which is vague, but IMO reasonable interpretation that he MAY 
not have killed anybody.

We have that **defeated** Grindelwald and we know he did not kill 
him,etc.

So I see no reason to interpret that Harry knows of any Dumbledore's 
murderous behavior. IMO of course.


Alla:

Dumbledore tortured and killed many people? Since you put Morfin and
Hokey among that number, I guess that means that he killed many
other people? Not that I agree that he killed Morfin and Hokey, but
I certainly want to ask whom else he tortured and killed?

lizzyben:

You misunderstood my post. I said that DD has been pulling many
strings throughout the series according to JKR, and Morfin &
Hokey's deaths could be one example of that. Pulling strings doesn't
always involve torture & death. Sometimes it involves putting a
Sorcerer's Stone in Hogwarts to lure Voldemort there, sending Hagrid
to give Harry some pro-Gryffindor leanings, etc.

DD usually maintains a distance from the actual deaths anyway, which
usually occur through intermediaries & agents. It's all about the
plausible deniability. Quirrel is only person that I'm sure he's
killed directly.

Alla:

I am not sure what I misunderstood. Here is your paragraph.

Lizzyben:
"I think that's as close to a confession as we'll ever get from
Dumbledore for anything. Harry's ringing endorsement (you only
killed people when you had to!) actually *reassures* Dumbledore.
When he says, "true, true", he's admitting that he's killed people
in the past, & accepting Harry's reassurance that it was all done
for the greater good. That's a whole lot more than Ariana; DD's been
responsible for the deaths of many people & he knows it. I think
Morfin & Hokey are among that number - charitably, DD may have felt
that he could not avoid their deaths, because it was essential to
obtain their hidden memories in order to find the Horcruxes. JKR has
stated that DD has been pulling many strings throughout the entire
story & IMO this is one example of that."

Alla:

I mean did you not say that Dumbledore responsible for many deaths 
and he knows it?

Of course he was pulling many strings throughout the series and how 
can I deny it?

What I AM disputing though is your claim that pulling many strings 
equals being responsible for the deaths of many people.

If I misunderstood that part, for that I apologize.

JMO,

Alla.