CHAPDISC: DH Ch 9, A Place to Hide

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 179865

---  "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> >Juli wrote:
> > Discussion Questions:
> > 
> > 2. Were you ever a Boy (or Girl) Scout? If so, what do you
> > think of Hermione's "Always prepared"? Do you think she 
> > would have made a good Girl Scout?
> 
> Potioncat:
> I was a Girl Scout leader, and if Hermione were in my troop,
> we'd have to have a little chat about that SNEAK jinx 
> business. As for Girl Scouting in DH, she'd have to submit 
> paperwork ....
> 
> She was pretty well prepared given she didn't really know 
> what Harry was up to. ...
> 

bboyminn:

Well, it was a short chapter and others seem to have covered
the key points nicely. The best I can do is add some 
secondary minor points.

I think Hermione would have made a great scout, not because
she /was/ prepared, but because she /does/ prepare. That is
typical Hermione, always needing to feel a sense of control,
not necessarily that she is in control, but that things are
under control, and one way to keep situations under control
is to 'be prepared'.

I think given the circumstances, Hermione was as prepared
as she could be. She had no way of knowing that they would
have to leave so soon or so suddenly. If they had the 
luxury of leaving the next day, likely she would have pack
food too. But, no point in packing food when you plan to 
spend that day at the equivalent of a feast. 

So, in my mind, it seems perfectly reasonable that she did
not have food with her.


> > 
> > 3. Why do you think The Trio didn't want to kill the Death
> > Eaters? They are 'good', we all get that, but they are in 
> > a war, and at those times killing is allowed. Do you agree?
> 
> Potioncat:
> I agree with Carol, the DEs were unconscious. It wouldn't be
> the  right way to go about it. ...
> 
> But I also agree with Mike and Aussie. The Trio should have
> done more to keep them out of the war. ...

bboyminn;

In previous long discussions of the Battle at the Ministry,
we have touched on the various points made by Mike and Aussie.
If I were in a battle, to the extent that circumstances allow,
I would deprive the DE's of the ability to fight. That is, I
would take, break and/or hide their wands. 

But really is it so strange the the Trio didn't? It seems that
in every action movie the hero knocks out the villain and 
tosses the villain's weapon aside. Yet 'tossed aside' can't 
be more than about 10 feet away. Like the villain is really 
so stupid he can't find it when he wakes up. 

Personally, I'm in favor of hitting them with multiple curses
just to confuse the matter. Knock them out with a Stunning
Curse, that compound that with a petrifying/Body-Bind curse,
top if off with Impedimenta, and maybe throw in Langlock
just for good measure. When re-enforcements arrive and 
try to undo the curses, they are going to have a complicated
mess on their hands, and are certainly going to be delayed
trying to sort it all out. 

While I can see a certain honor in not depriving a wizard of
his wand. When it is a matter of life and death, especially
when the death is mine, I think I can make an exception. 
Even if you can't bring ourself to destroy a wand, it wouldn't
hurt to take it outside and drop it down the storm drain. They
could probably get it back with a Summoning Charm, but how 
long would it take them to figure out that was the right and
necessary thing to do. Any delay and annoyance is to the 
advantage of the heroes. 

> > 
> > 4. How does Hermione know how to produce a speaking Patronus? 
> > ...
> 
> Potioncat:
> I thought that she was a member of the Order. Her comments at
> Privet  Dr. made it seem that she had been active in planning 
> sessions. ...
> 
> But, the Patronus Charm hasn't stayed consistent. I'm not 
> sure why it couldn't have been used for communication with 
> Order members. ... 

bboyminn:

I think Hermione has seen the Messenger Patronus demonstrated
and might have even gotten some basic instruction from Tonks 
and others, but she really hadn't had a chance to try it
out yet. So, she understood the underlying theory, but had
no practical experience.

As to why they couldn't use the Patronus to communicate with
say the Weasleys, each Patronus takes on a unique animal 
form. If a known animal form had come soaring in the Burrow
or the Minstry, it would have been a dead give away. Even if
the animal form wasn't known, there would be no logical
reason for a dark defense form to travel to a place that had
no Dark magic. Again, very very suspicious indeed.

Plus, if they sent the Patronus to a specific person, how
could they be sure that person was in a secure situation
so they could receive the message? Mr. Weasley could be
standing in the hall of the Ministry talking to DE's when
the Patronus arrived and delivered its message. That would
be bad for everyone. 

> Potioncat continues"
>
> Also, Umbridge is able to cast a regular one and use it for
> prolonged periods, yet it was supposed to be an anti-Dark 
> charm.

bboyminn:

I don't see an inconsistency here. Harry's Patronus seems 
to last as long as it is needed but no longer. They don't
linger or dwell. There were Dementors in the court room,
as long as the Dementors would be there, the  Patronus
would be needed and would therefore linger.

If the objections is to how a troll like Umbridge could 
come up with the happy memory necessary to cast a Partonus,
as someone else already pointed out, the memory only has
to be uniquely happy to Umbridge. She could have conjured
the Patronus with happy memories of torturing Harry with
the Cutting Quill. Horrific to everyone else, but probably
a happy memory for Umbridge.

> > 
> > 5. What do you think were Harry's feelings as he entered
> > 12 Grimmauld Place, that dreaded place where his godfather
> > once lived, and is greeted by the ghost of his mentor?
> 
> Potioncat:
> I don't know, but it scared the snot out of me! Afterwards,
> it seemed a strange, comical sort of jinx and I didn't quite
> "get it" as an anti-Snape device; unless it would have acted 
> differently if Snape really had attempted to enter. 
> 

bboyminn:

I think Moody was very limited in the Jinx he could reasonably
put of Grimmauld Place. It was Harry's house after all, and
he could use anything so extreme it would actually prevent
people from using the house. Nor could he use anything that
would cause real harm in case it accidentally harmed the 
wrong person. 

I think the curse was just a reminder to Snape that the Order
knew full well what he did, or thought they did, and were 
intent on holding him fully responsible for his actions. 


> > 6. The Trio see signs that someone has been at 12 GP. What did you
> > think this meant? Did you think it had been Snape, and if so, how 
> did you think he got past Moody's jinxes?
> „« 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Like an earlier post, I thought it was Mundungus, or the Order 
> leaving in a rush. ...The scene does work to set up Foe!Snape
> ... 

bboyminn:

Well, we already knew Mundungus had been in there when he
really shouldn't have, and it seemed very likely that Snape
had searched it after Mundungus, though certainly Snape 
would have very different priorities in what he searched for.

Which brings up the question, exactly what was Snape searching
for? Certainly his secondary objective was to find things
related to Lily, nothing important, just mementos and keep-
sakes. But what was his primary objective? What could have
possibly been left in the house by the Order that they 
would so disregard as to leave behind, and yet would be so
valuable that Snape would seek them out? 

I wondered if others had been in the house, because there
was an element of mystery and uncertainty about it. It seemed
very unlikely that it was anyone other than Snape and 
Mundungus.


> >
> > 
> > 7. Do you think Draco regrets not taking Dumbledore's side?
> > Do you think he would be better off on 'The Good Side'?
> 
> Potioncat:
> The suggestion of an offer was made rather late in the game.
> Draco may wish he could have gone over, but at this point, 
> I don't think he has a side. The Malfoys are just trying to
> stay alive.
> 
> 
> Thanks, Juli, for a great discussion

bboyminn:

Yes, Draco was an idiot for getting mixed up with the DE's
so young, and even an idiot for getting mixed up at all.
There was a brief moment when Dumbledore made his offer of
protection, but there simply wasn't time to think or act.
Before Draco could honestly weigh his options, the 
situation had gotten out of hand, and he was blocked from 
taking the offer.

>From that point on, Draco was deeper in a trap of his own
making than he could have ever imagined. He didn't want
to be where he was, but there was no where else to go, and
if he ran, it would mean abandoning his family. 

Draco is another one of those that is cursed by the choices 
he made.

Luckily, in the end, (likely) Harry's mercy saved him from
the bulk of the consequences he surely deserved. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn