Salazar, Slytherins and Bigotry

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 179951


> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, Mike.  I had theories. Beautiful, beautiful theories.  And now 
> they're *crap*! <rbg>  That was back in the day that I thought the 
> rift between Slytherin and Gryffindor was something that needed to 
> be dealt with.  Since it seems it was never meant to be I have no 
> idea *why* Gryffindor and Slytherin were ever friends.

Mike:
I guess since I enjoyed the series *including* the finale so much 
more than you, I still want to explore these kind of things. That 
was one of the things I enjoyed about JKR's writing, she's left it 
to me explore aspects of the characters and entertain myself with 
speculating about what happened, after providing me with the basics.

I got the founders, then I got the Gaunts, then I got the Peverell 
brothers. From there, I got to piece together what felt like the 
most plausible backstory on my own. I feel like I understand the 
characters and the story well enough to make an educated guess for 
that backstory.

BTW, is <rbg> "really big grin"? Or "received bad genomes"? ;)


> Betsy Hp:
> Cynically, I've determined it was mainly to get that particular
> house into the school in the first place.  You know, to provide 
> bad guys. <g>

Mike:
Worked, didn't it! <g>



> Betsy Hp:
> Doesn't one of the Sorting Hat's songs mention something about 
> Slytherins being those whose blood is the "purest"?  Either way...

Mike:
Ah yes, the Hat's infamous call for pure-bloods. Excepting, all 
pure-bloods don't go into Slytherin. And excepting at least two 
half-bloods did get in. Now Riddle was a descendant, so I suppose 
he had to go into Slytherin. But young Severus wasn't and he got in.

Now that I think on it, didn't Sirius say that all the pure-blood 
families are somehow related. So wouldn't every pure-blood have some 
ties to Salazar. It seems Harry did through Ignotus Peverell, and 
Harry's only half-blood. What made Tom Riddle's blood connection so 
special?

It seems the Hat's practice didn't match that particular stanza 
quite so strictly. And in any case, being a pure-blood did not 
necessarily make one a bigot. Howsoever, it seemed having Slytherin 
parents was a good indicator of a propensity towards bigotry. And if 
that didn't do it, living in Slytherin House for seven years would 
probably remove all your inhibitions for using the word "Mudblood".

Still, that's a cultural thing, not a characteristic for sorting.



> > Mike:
> > [Bigotry] is a learned trait that seems endemic to the type of 
> > families that favor the Slytherin credo.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> That's true.  And therefore I see nothing changing.  I mean, 
> Dumbledore didn't even make the attempt, so I kind of get the idea 
> that it's not possible.  In this world if you're a bigot at age 
> eleven, then a bigot you shall remain.  You know, so that we can 
> have bad guys. <eg>

Mike:
I'm not too hot on our dear departed headmaster just now, so don't 
expect me to defend him too vigorously. Truthfully, I can't figure 
out what he did to "[help] hone young minds" from up there in his 
passworded hideaway. Other than Harry's of course, he had to keep 
his fingers on those strings. He certainly didn't seem to be making 
an effort to curb the enthusiastic urges of the more dark leaning 
amongst his charges.

That said, yeah, JKR needed bad guys. And Slytherin fit the bill. 
And if you're a bigot at age eleven, it's up to you to see the error 
of your ways. I remember using some very bigoted terms when I was in 
elementary school, they were part nad parcel of our normal speech 
growing up. But I learned to stop using those terms. Also, I learned 
that those terms were derogatory, not descriptive nor predictive. 
Along the way, I've made many friends amongst the same group that I 
used to callously write off in my youth. 

That's what the Dracos had not learned. Maybe the Scorpiuses will 
learn it. 


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/179943

>> a_svirn:
Seems to me you are agreeing with me rather than with Betsy, because
that' exactly what I said. *Voldemort* himself didn't give a ...
well, straw about muggle-borns, but his followers (most of whom where
Slytherins) did, very much so. Which is precisely why he needed that
particular Red Herring. And that is what I meant: the fight with
Voldemort was about that mad "wrong immortality" stuff, but the
Hogwarts Houses controversy was about pure-bloodism. <<

Mike:
Sorry, I guess I confused who was saying what. I think I'm partially 
agreeing with both of you, because I don't think you're too far apart 
on this topic. Possibly, Betsy thought the school rivalries weren't 
pure-bloodism based and you countered that hypothesis? I'd say that 
the displayed bigotry of the Slytherins definitely played a part in 
the school animosities. It was not the only thing, though. Between 
Harry and Draco, I'd say that personality had as much bearing on 
their enmity as Draco's pure-blood leanings. I also think that early 
on, Harry rightfully perceived Draco's willingness to join Team 
Voldemort. That wasn't helpful in forging friendly ties. ;)


> Betsy Hp:
> Or, he may have decided that what comes from trusting a half-blood.
> <veg>  I just get the impression that Draco isn't a character who 
> learns much.  He's just one more bad guy for Harry to pit himself 
> against, but not a living, breathing character in his own right who
> suffers and grows.  I think purgatory is his place.

Mike:
I think Draco learned alot during his time in purgatory (under LV's 
thumb). He was certainly depicted as being disgusted with what he was 
being made to do. He seems quite removed from that boastful boy on 
the train in HBP. Whether he's learned that pure-bloodism is a false 
prophet, eh, who can say? He seemed to be bright enough to realize 
that his parents chosen path wasn't the best way to go. I suppose I'm 
counting on him to be able to add 2 + 2 and make it all the way to 4.

I do think the thrust of the story was the defeat of ole snakeface, 
and that that removed a mighty big temptation for the bigots to act 
out their disfunctional yens. I'm hoping that all that disgust we saw 
on Draco's face foreshadowed his change of heart, not just his change 
of actions.



> Betsy Hp (enjoyed the agreement and the smelling salts! <g>)

Mike, can I get you a comfy cushion <g>