Killing and Morality/Sarah Monette(SPOILERS) and JKR WAS: Re: JKR's Opinion

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 179969

> >>Betsy Hp:
> <snip>
> I don't admire Harry for his decision to not kill. I felt it was   
> pasted on morality that only worked because the author was on his   
> side. There was no honest examination of Harry's decision, IMO,    
> because Harry was never put into a position where his deciding not 
> to kill would lead to another's death.
> <snip>

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> What does it mean his deciding not to kill would lead to another's 
> death? I am talking about Harry deciding to spare people, whom he 
> could not spare if he chose so. To me it is admirable.
> You mean that nobody was dead because Harry spared somebody or do   
> you mean something different?
> Only in that situation you would respect Harry for not killing???

Betsy Hp:
I mean that Harry's choice was never made hard.  He was never faced 
with a situation where if he did not kill the war would be lost or a 
loved one would be lost.  It was pacifism on the cheap, IMO. 

To pull in another example (and make this conversation even more 
esotaric, sorry fellow list members) in 'The Charioteers', which took 
place during the early stages of WWII when Britain was at her most 
desperate, we had a pacifist character.  His choice was *hard*.  By 
choosing not to kill, to be a conscientious objector, he was 
literally faced with the possibility that Germany could well invade.  
And the character wrestled with his decision.  So while I didn't 
fully agree with the character's choice in that I'd have probably 
chosen differently, I admired the hell out of his convictions because 
they were real convictions put under a massive test.

Harry's decision to not kill didn't ever threaten the effort against 
Voldemort, so he never had to really wrestle with it.

Or to pull up another example:

****MAJOR MONETTE SPOILERS TO FOLLOW****
SERIOUSLY
REALLY
BIG
BIG 
SPOILER
********
When Felix killed Malker he was in a fight for his life.  If he'd 
chosen not to kill, Malker would have killed him.  And then Malker 
would have killed Mildmay, and Felix knew it.  So that choice not to 
kill would have been at the expense of his own and his brother's 
life.  Harry was never placed in that position.
*********

AND WE'RE DONE (FOR NOW)

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> And I am asking what exactly Trio got for themselves during         
> horcruxes hunt and hallow hunt that benefited them first and        
> foremost? Hermione would have much preferred to stay in Hogwarts   
> and study, no?

Betsy Hp:
But as a Muggleborn she could not have.  As Dean's example made 
clear.  So it's not like she was making a choice between school or a 
life on the run.  She was making a choice between a life on the run 
or a life on the run with purpose.

> >>Alla:
> Ron would have at least preferred to be with his family, not in the 
> forest.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Ron, I think, made the biggest sacrifice because as a pure-blood I 
think he could have gotten by in Voldemort's world.  But it wasn't a 
world he wanted, so working to defeat Voldemort really did benefit 
Ron (and his family) in the end.

> >>Alla:
> I guess I want to know what did Trio get for themselves during book 
> 7 What personal benefits?

Betsy Hp:
Harry got vengence and a peaceful world, Hermione got a magical world 
she could actually take part in (she would not have had that had 
Voldemort won), and Ron got a peaceful world and the chance to marry 
the woman he loved.

> >>Sally:
> So because they would have suffered under a WW ruled by Voldemort, 
> you consider their motives selfish?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, yes to a certain extent (and I do realize it's an extreme 
extent). But really, what I was most looking to was that their 
actions were not completely *selfless*.  Whereas the two characters 
Alla and I have been chatting about, Felix and Mildmay, have both put 
themselves at extreme risk (like a long drawn out death kind of risk) 
to save people who's lives not only did not benefit theirs, but who 
they also didn't really like that much.

To my mind that trumps their backgrounds as street children.

> >>Sally:
> I haven't read any of the Monette book so I can't compare the two, 
> but Hermione isn't a kind or compassionate person? The girl who    
> tried to free the house elves, save Buckbeak and whose first scene 
> was helping poor hapless Neville find his toad. And "even Ron"?    
> Does that mean that you consider Ron to be the kindest, most       
> selfless or compassionate member of the trio? If so, I'd love to   
> hear why, if you feel like discussing it, because I don't interpret 
> Ron that way at all and I'm curious.

Betsy Hp:
Fair warning, I really dislike Hermione.  Any girl who can, without 
hesitation or remorse, disfigure another student scores high on my 
creep-o-meter.  Plus, I feel that she abuses Ron.  Literally, 
physically abuses him, which also gets a ping on the meter.  Hermione 
is compassionate when she feels like it.  But she can turn it off at 
a moment's notice if it's to her benefit.  Hermione has no respect 
for law.  She *is* the law as far as she's concerned.  What Hermione 
wants, Hermione gets and that's all there is to it.  (That's all my 
opinion, of course.  I know others feel quite differently.)

Ron, on the other hand, while he can be incredibly cruel with his 
verbal barbs, actually does try and look at things from the other 
person's point of view.  So I do think he's the...  I guess I'd say 
most likable member of the Trio for me.

****BACK INTO MAJOR MONETTE SPOILER TERRITORY****

> >>Betsy Hp:
> <snip>
> They live in a harsher world, but despite that, they've shown more 
> kindness, selflessness and compassion than I've seen out of Harry, 
> certainly Hermione, and even Ron.

> >>Alla:
> They would not stop before taking a life, if they need it to help 
> themselves. Sorry, not my idea of the better people. And if Mildmay 
> really did not want to be a killer, I think he should have tried 
> harder not to kill.

Betsy Hp:
Mildmay was literally dying because of his extreme poverty (sick with 
fever and about to get evicted) *because* he'd chosen to no longer be 
a killer.  And you have to keep in mind, he was trained as a killer 
from age thirteen up.  He was alot like those child soliders you hear 
about.  His Keeper had a major, major hold on him.  He talks about 
being a stupid kid and doing anything he could to make her proud of 
him.  It was a huge step for him to runaway from her and strike out 
on his own.  And he did it *because* he didn't want to kill any more. 

> >>Alla:
> He is oh so very upset, but he kills on the ship anyways, no?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Um, no.  That's where he refused a place in the life boat so that he 
could stay and protect Felix.  One of the sailors died in the storm 
(he later found out) and he added that death to the toll of deaths 
around him.  But Mildmay had nothing to do with it.  He was just 
really depressed and feeling like he was a bad luck charm.  (Anyone 
around me will die, because I suck, so it's all my fault.)

> >>Alla:
> I am just again cannot put in my mind the idea that killer and 
> emotional abuser of somebody who seemed to love them so much (IMO) 
> are better people than Trio. They are great characters, sure, but 
> better "people"? Not to me.

Betsy Hp:
Well, part of it is that I see the Trio as pretty icky for far less 
reason.  That Felix can trust anyone, feel any compassion towards 
anyone, risk himself for anyone, or just out and out love anyone with 
his background?  It's amazing, to my mind.  So I look at Hermione 
(and you know my views on Hermione <g>) and think, "What's her 
excuse?"

> >>Alla:
> But I think I am starting to parrot myself.  I will try to restrain 
> my fingers from next reply, since I think we are entering tennis 
> match zone.

Betsy Hp:
Hee! We probably are (though I tried to make the conversation a bit 
more interesting with the pacifism thing).  But I adore Mildmay and 
Felix (yes, even Felix!) so much I could talk about them forever. 
<bg>  Plus, I'm rereading, so it's all fresh in my mind. <even bigger 
grin>

Betsy Hp (should probably look for a Monette group now that I think 
on it...)