[HPforGrownups] CHAPDISC: DH10, Kreacher's Tale

[Sarah Glaubman]

No: HPFGUIDX 180112


On Dec 26, 2007, at 5:30 AM, colebiancardi wrote:

> > 4. Kreacher mentions that Sirius' leaving home broke his mother's
> > heart. Does this new bit of information seem to contradict Sirius'
> > story about his relationship with his family?
>
> Jeanette: I would say no. It is entirely possible her heart was  
> broken because
> of the REASON that Sirius left and not the fact of his leaving. To
> have a son reject everything she believed in and walk away from the
> traditions and responiblities she felt were of the utmost importance
> could be heart-breaking.

Sarah: I agree with Jeanette. I had the impression that Sirius's  
attitude and behavior as a whole broke his mother's heart, not only  
the fact of his running away. What Kreacher says is, "he broke my  
Mistress's heart with his lawless ways."

> 5.	Regulus joined the DEs when he was 16, which means that Voldemort
> really had no age limit for his recruits. How does this contrast with
> the Order of the Phoenix? Ignoring that the DE's are evil and the
> Order is good, do you think that the DEs support the notion of
> fighting for what you believe in, regardless of age? In other words,
> do you agree with the Order's stance of not allowing underage wizards
> to join or do you agree with the Death Eater's stance instead?

Sarah: Sirius told us that Voldemort would kill anyone who tried to  
leave his service. It was, like everything LV did, really unethical  
to recruit young kids to something they might not really understand  
so they would be committed for life, or die a horrible death. It  
wasn't like young people participating in a political movement where  
they were free to change their minds. Young people are easy targets  
for manipulation. I can't separate this from the DEs being evil.

There seems to be kind of a contradiction about the Order protecting  
underage kids from joining, and the way the trio were always doing  
the most dangerous work as kids. Given their involvement in the  
danger, I don't think they should have been shut out from hearing  
about what was going on, as the Order tried to do at the beginning of  
book five. I think it was reasonable for the OP to have a minimum age  
for people to do dangerous missions, but this didn't seem to be what  
actually happened (but these kids were special, eh?) Maybe DD's views  
on the subject were not the same as the rules of the Order as a whole.

> 6.	After Kreacher returns from the cave and tells his tale to Regulus,
> where do you think Regulus went? Regulus' return to Kreacher shows a
> Regulus with a disturbed state of mind, strange, according to
> Kreacher. Do you think Regulus talked to anyone or just did book
> research?

Sarah: I really wondered about this question, about when and how  
Regulus "discovered [the Dark Lord's] secret." As far as I can  
remember, none of the other DEs knew about the Horcruxes. Snape was  
trying until the end to get Dumbledore to explain Harry's mission to  
him, and didn't know why LV should come to "fear for the life of his  
snake." Bellatrix didn't really know the significance of the thing LV  
asked her to hide. They were close to LV. Interesting that Regulus  
figured out something Snape didn't, with all Snape's knowledge of  
Dark Magic, and being at LV's side for so long. I don't think Regulus  
would have seen LV again after hearing Kreacher's story and telling  
him to hide in the house, considering LV's Legillimency power.

I hadn't thought of colebiancardi's point, that Regulus may still  
have been at school and might have talked to Slughorn or Dumbledore.  
Though as someone else pointed out, Slughorn's (cowardly, I say) lips  
were probably sealed.

>
> a.	Despite what Harry knew about the note that Regulus left in the
> locket, did he think badly of Regulus because he was a Slytherin? Do
> you feel that Harry is showing his old biases here?

Sarah: I think Harry would think badly of Regulus because he was a  
Death Eater, more than because he was a Slytherin.
>
>
> 8.	How did you feel when Regulus' death was revealed? I found this to
> be the most tragic death of all of the deaths in the series. Do you
> feel that Regulus redeemed himself?

Sarah: I absolutely feel that Regulus redeemed himself, and I am  
surprised if this is a controversial question. He quietly subjected  
himself to a really horrible death, unknown and unappreciated at the  
time, in order to try to do much more to stop Voldemort than he had  
ever done to help him. I think he made a bigger sacrifice than anyone  
who died with the understanding and comradeship of their friends.
>
>
> 9.	Do you think Regulus should have done more to let others know what
> Voldemort was up to?

Sarah: I wouldn't fault Regulus for that, given what he knew. The  
note suggests that he thought the locket was the only Horcrux, and  
that he thought he would succeed in destroying it. If he had told  
anyone else, there was a chance that LV might find out before he  
successfully carried out his mission. And as others have said, he was  
very concerned to protect his family.
>
>
> 10.	How do you feel about Kreacher at the end of this tale? Did you
> feel empathy for him? Is Kreacher's attitude now explainable and
> understandable?

Sarah: I don't blame Kreacher for anything, though I don't really  
feel much empathy for him. I do agree with Hermione about the  
treatment of house-elves and the impact it had on them psychologically.
>
>
> 11.	Does Hermione's explanation - Voldemort's contempt for house-elves
> was his downfall in Kreacher's escape from the cave - make sense? Do
> you think her parallel of Voldemort's and Sirius' attitude towards
> house-elves was warranted, or a bit extreme?

Sarah: I think it makes sense that Voldemort would not know about the  
power of house-elf magic because he thought they were so far beneath  
his great and powerful self, but that this is something typical of  
Voldemort, and it wasn't only with house-elves. He was such an  
egomaniac he thought no one else had used the Room of Hidden Objects,  
even though it was full of stuff he hadn't put there, and he didn't  
think anyone could find out about the Horcruxes, though he had talked  
to Slughorn about them and left a trail of murder and collection of  
precious objects behind him. He held love in contempt and didn't know  
how Lily's sacrifice magic worked either.

I think Sirius's insensitive attitude toward the feelings of house- 
elves were pretty conventional in the wizarding world, and similar to  
Ron's in the earlier books. I think Sirius was mean to Kreacher  
because Kreacher was part of the home he had hated, was loyal to  
those family members and parroted those beliefs that Sirius hated. So  
I think the cases are quite different, with Sirius typically Sirius  
and Voldemort typically Voldemort. I didn't hear Hermione actually  
equate them. Voldemort did something worse to Kreacher than Sirius  
ever could have done.

> 12.	Harry's attitude finally changes towards Kreacher, with his tale
> and Hermione's explanation. Is this a turning point for Harry in
> regards for empathy and understanding or do you feel that Harry has
> already made strides in this area with other characters? Do you have
> examples, if the latter?

Sarah: I think Harry is a remarkably nice kid, considering the  
circumstances of his upbringing. He was brought up by Muggles who  
treated him horribly and prevented him from having relationships with  
anyone else, and his only good experiences were with wizards, and yet  
he was never attracted at all by the anti-Muggle ideas of some  
wizards. Despite the fact that Snape is so mean to Harry, he is  
appalled by his father's and Sirius's behavior toward Snape in  
Snape's Worst Memory, and he feels urgently that he must talk to  
Sirius about it. Someone mentioned the change in his appreciation for  
Luna, which can be seen in HBP when it occurs to him that she, like  
him, has lost a parent, and he would rather go to Slughorn's party  
with her than with a "normal" person. He is way ahead of Ron there,  
and earlier with realizing that Hermione was right that Ron could  
have asked her to the Yule ball sooner instead of as an afterthought,  
if he was unhappy that she went with Krum. In HPB Harry is horrified  
to see that he has used a really harmful spell on Draco  
(Sectumsempra), after Draco started the fight and tried to Crucio  
him. He doesn't defend himself for this, or to Snape when he throws  
him out of the office after he sees the memory.



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