The Continuing Tragedy of Severus Snape: Reflections on Books 1-5

[Unspeakable]

No: HPFGUIDX 164558

No worries. :-)

wynleaf says:
In my experience, when someone is trying to explain how someone excels
in an area, and then makes a comparison to another person, saying,
"why even ______ couldn't do that!" what they are typically doing is
making a comparison to the highest in that area, not someone only
fairly good. So I read Slughorn's thought to be, more or less, "Harry
is really talented! He must get it from Lily. Even Snape couldn't do
some of the things Harry can!"

Of course Slughorn would assume Harry got his "talent" from his
mother, since she apparently had talent -- people always make those
sorts of comparisons when a talented parent has a talented child in
the same field. But the "even Snape couldn't do what Harry could do,"
sort of comment actually, as I understand it, places Snape's talent
above Lily's. 

Cassy:
Good point! However, I would counter that Slughorn is not
*spontaneously* saying to Harry, "why even Severus Snape couldn't do
that!", which would have been more persuasive, IMHO. Instead, he's
meeting Snape at a party and raving about Harry's brilliance in the
discipline that Snape used to teach. (Though it's worth noting that
Snape seems to prefer DADA to Potions!) Indeed, Slughorn, benign and
generous, tries to include Snape in his praise of Harry... (& I doubt
he'd have mentioned Snape's name at all if Snape hadn't just walked
past). Here's the scene again:

"Ah, Sybill, we all think our subject's most important!" said a loud
voice, and Slughorn appeared at Professor Trelawney's other side, his
face very red, his velvet hat a little askew, a glass of mead in one
hand and an enormous mince pie in the other. "But I don't think I've
ever known such a natural at Potions!" said Slughorn, regarding Harry
with a fond, if bloodshot, eye. "Instinctive, you know—like his
mother! I've only ever taught a few with this kind of ability, I can
tell you that, Sybill—why even Severus —"

And to Harry's horror, Slughorn threw out an arm and seemed to scoop
Snape out of thin air toward them.

"Stop skulking and come and join us, Severus!" hiccuped Slughorn
happily. "I was just talking about Harry's exceptional potion-making!
Some credit must go to you, of course, you taught him for five years!"

Trapped, with Slughorn's arm around his shoulders, Snape looked down
his hooked nose at Harry, his black eyes narrowed.

"Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter
anything at all."

"Well, then, it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have
seen what he gave me, first lesson, Draught of Living Death—never had
a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you,
Severus —"

"Really?" said Snape quietly, his eyes still boring into Harry, who
felt a certain disquiet. The last thing he wanted was for Snape to
start investigating the source of his newfound brilliance at Potions.
(HBP15)

wynleaf:
Slughorn does another "even you" when he talked about how well Harry
did with his first attempt at Draught of Living Death. If Lily had
done it as well as Harry, Slughorn could have said, "Harry did it as
well as Lily did!" Or if Lily had produced a better DoLD than Snape,
Slughorn could have said, "even Lily didn't do so well the first time
around." But instead, Slughorn says, "even you,
Severus..." which shows that Snape was the best potions student until
Slughorn saw Harry's "talent."

Cassy:
But as I read it, Snape *is* effectively saying, "Harry did it as well
as Lily did!" (Albeit, Harry is even more of a prodigy because he
apparently did it the first time!) Harry's talent is "instinctive ...
like his mother"; Slughorn has "only ever taught a few with this kind
of [natural] ability"; "not even Severus..." etc. could do as well as
Harry and (by implication) Lily. Only Lily's not around any more...
unlike Snape. 

wynleaf:
Naturally, when Slughorn saw Harry's "talent" he thought of Lily. Who
else would he think of? It's not like Harry was going to inherit it
from Snape, right? So all the comparisons are to Lily because Lily was
Harry's mother and talented in potions.

Cassy:
Very true! :-) But Slughorn raved about Lily even before he had seen
Harry perform in a Potions lesson & the whole tenor of his remarks
makes it difficult for me to accept that Good-at-Potions-Lily was
still second best to Snape. She was funny, brave and charming
(Cheeky!Lily) but she was also highly gifted, IMHO... & what Slughorn
seems to recognize in Harry is Lily's creative *style* which seems to
fit with her intuitive, empathetic personality. 

"Hmpf. Yes, well. You shouldn't have favorites as a teacher, of
course, but she was one of mine. Your mother," Slughorn added, in
answer to Harry's questioning look. "Lily Evans. One of the brightest
I ever taught." (HBP4)

"Excellent, excellent, Harry! Good lord, its clear you've inherited
your mother's talent. She was a dab hand at Potions, Lily was!" (HBP9)

"That's the individual spirit a real potion-maker needs!" said
Slughorn happily 
 "Just like his mother, she had the same intuitive
grasp of potion-making, it's undoubtedly from Lily he gets it 
And an
extra ten points to Gryffindor for sheer cheek!" (HBP18) 

"Well, now, this looks absolutely wonderful," said Slughorn ...
"Euphoria, I take it? And what's that I smell? Mmmm ... you've added
just a sprig of peppermint, haven't you? Unorthodox, but what a stroke
of inspiration, Harry, of course, that would tend to counterbalance
the occasional side effects of excessive singing and nose-tweaking.
... I really don't know where you get these brain waves, my boy ...
unless ... it's just your mother's genes coming out in you!" (HBP22)

For me all this *has* to be more significant...

Cassy V.
http://book7.co.uk/