Dursleys or Death (was Re: Christian Forgiveness and Snape)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 164592

> Pippin:
> I'm not sure where this is coming from. The Potters *died* to
> keep Harry alive. I think that's a pretty strong statement of 
> their wishes. 

Jen:  Thank you.  That's the piece I overlooked to confirm Dumbledore 
very much considered the Potters' wishes.  I sometimes find myself 
losing sight of points when looking at an event from a new angle.

Pippin:
> The light in Dumbledore's eyes usually shows itself when he's
> amused or pleased about something. Of course he wouldn't be
> pleased about having to leave Harry at the Dursleys. But it seems
> like a leap to say that his compassion for Harry's suffering had
> to die so that he could do such a thing. I think his heart
> was aching, but it would be  a poor return for James and Lily's
> sacrifice if he let their son be murdered to salve his own
> feelings. 

Jen: I've been trying to figure out exactly what we're debating 
here.  I *think* you're saying that because Dumbledore made the right 
decision he didn't need to dwell on his feelings about the Dursley 
piece of the plan.  That in his mind he was giving Harry a life and a 
future and therefore a choice about the prophecy, something much more 
crucial than what Harry might suffer at the Dursleys.   

I'm saying that I agree with the choice Dumbledore made and the 
reasoning behind it because Harry had extraordinary circumstances.  
Keeping him alive after everything that happened trumped other 
considerations for Dumbledore, who recognized Harry's choice would 
involve not just his own life but the entire WW.  

But Dumbledore also believes love is crucially important.  The choice 
he made for the blood protection was a 'shield' of Lily's love which 
Dumbledore described in PS this way 'to have been loved so deeply, 
even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some 
protection forever.' (chap. 17)  So I think love was on his mind when 
he chose for Harry, Dumbledore seems like a person who would find it 
heartbreaking to 'condemn', (doom, sentence) infant Harry to a place 
where he might not experience love no matter how certain he is of his 
plan.  When explaining everything to Harry, Dumbledore talked as if 
he expected *Harry* might not accept his choices.  DD said Harry 
would likely be more angry than he already was, that he would 'rage' 
at him.  He anticipated questions Harry didn't even ask like 'why not 
the nice wizarding family'?  My guess is Dumbledore had asked 
*himself* those questions and pondered his options before realizing 
the only way to protect Harry was the blood charm and, therefore, the 
Dursleys.  

So perhaps I'm taking it too far to say his compassion for Harry died 
or was buried inside his compassion for the entire WW, but it doesn't 
seem far enough to me to say Dumbledore was merely not 'pleased' 
about the situation, especially given Dumbledore's insistence 
that 'the ability to love' is Harry's power.  His speech indicates he 
wasn't completely certain what kind of person Harry would be when he 
returned to the WW, that he considered the Dursleys a risk he had to 
take.  

Pippin:
> This whole too much thing is again part of that older culture
> that says feelings aren't to be trusted. And Dumbledore is
> struggling with that, working his way to the idea that
> his love for Harry was not a mistake, or if so it was a felix
> culpa. (OOP is the book of 'felix culpa', Dumbledore even
> refers to it when he says a "lucky mistake" brought him
> to Harry's hearing on time.) 

Jen:  I don't believe it's connected to a cultural thing so much as 
Dumbledore realizing his flaw was actually his strength, it allowed 
him to connect with Harry.  That realization may have even played 
into Dumbledore's understanding of Harry's power.  Anyway, I agree 
with your basic premise since I said something similar in my last 
post. 

Pippin:
> But it's not as if Dumbledore had a choice between Petunia and
> some other relative of Lily's who could have provided a 
> nurturing home. If Rowling wanted Dumbledore's choice
> to be about that, about Dumbledore deciding  that nurture 
> would  be bad for Harry, she could easily have created such a
> relative, (Mark Evans, anyone?) but she didn't.
> 
> Dumbledore feels very strongly that pampering would be
> bad for Harry, but I think it's a misunderstanding to equate
> pampering with nurture and love. Doing so is so far
> from Dumbledore's thinking that I'm sure he feels he
> doesn't need to explain the difference -- leaving his
> readers just where Rowling wants them, ie thinking about it. 

Jen: I'm assuming these comments are directed to the thread in 
general as they've not come up in our particular discusssion.  My 
best guess for the 'pampered prince' comment comes from something JKR 
said about Dudley: 

"I feel sorry for Dudley. I might joke about him, but I feel truly 
sorry for him because I see him as just as abused as Harry. Though, 
in possibly a less obvious way. What they are doing to him is inept, 
really. I think children recognize that. Poor Dudley. He's not being 
prepared for the world at all, in any reasonable or compassionate 
way, so I feel sorry for him."  (Cinescape, Nov. 2000) 

So, whether people agree with JKR or not, Dumbledore seems to be 
speaking for her convictions here.  

Pippin:
>  "SIRIUS DESERVED WHAT HE GOT" is the same, IMO, so far 
> from Dumbledore's thinking that it didn't occur to him that his
> words would sound that way to Harry, just as he didn't
> expect Harry to put so much weight on the prophecy.  

Jen:  Yes, I agree with your first comment. This is similar to what I 
said previously:  "And when Harry calls him on it, tells him how his 
words actually sound to Harry, 'SO SIRIUS ACTUALLY DESERVED WHAT HE 
GOT', Dumbledore starts to back off until, 'I was trying to keep 
Sirius alive', said Dumbledore quietly."

Re: the prophecy, I wonder what DD would have done had there been no 
eavesdropper?  Even he was impressed with Trelawney's 'prediction'. 

Jen