[HPforGrownups] Wanted! Complex Female Adult Character: (was:Re: ESE!McGonagall...

Tue Feb 6 00:44:37 UTC 2007

No: HPFGUIDX 164655

       >>Julie:
> >I guess my real disappointment with Canon!McGonagall then is that
> >she is such a one note character, which seems to be par for the
> >course with the adult female characters.
> ><snip 'cause in total agreement>

> >>Jeremiah:
> I'm not going to do the "boys vs. girls" thing, but I want to talk
> a bit about the ladies you'd mentioned as being one-dimensional,
>
> I don't see Molly Weasley as one-dimensional. Not at all. I see her
> as extremely complex as a mother-figure.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Is she really complex though? I mean, Molly is the "harried mom"
complete with a total inability to get the "real point" (on going
war, etc.) and a tendency to see her children as cogs in her
household machine rather than people in and of their own right. I
see JKR milking Molly for comedy. I don't see her giving Molly any
sort of depth.
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Ø       Jeremiah:

       I don't see the "cogs in her household machine" issue. If you're in a
family as large as the Weasleys and the table needs to be set for dinner
then you're going to delegate. If you have a bunch of kids that have to get
off to school then you're going to bark and nudge… a lot. And I am someone
who believes that kids aren't "little adults" and need to be steered a bunch
as kids. Teen-agers aren't adults and don't behave like adults, either. I
can see Phineus Nigellu's perspectives but he's a Negative-Nancy and has a
bad attitude. But Molly has  moment where she yells at Fred and George
before the Quidditch World Cup and then when they return safe and sound she
regrets her words of anger.

Also, I do think she' got the point of the "ongoing war" because she was
there for the first one. Because she doesn't express it the way others do
doesn't mean she'd not aware of the danger. I think she's more aware than
others. The men all have this, "save the world from evil" thing going on and
Mollie sees the loss of life that will entail.

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> >>Jeremiah:
> I really hate the notion that keeping house is a negative skill.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I tend to think JKR disagrees with you there. Of course I really,
really dislike Molly. A lot. But even through my admittedly tainted
view, doesn't JKR tend to have Molly's housekeeping worries seem a
bit... trivial, silly even? Like when Harry's heading off to his
trial in OotP and Molly decides to try and tame Harry's hair. It
annoys and discomforts Harry and seems to illustrate Molly's complete
lack of helpfulness in a stressful situation. Rather than being a
calming influence, Molly is best at stirring everyone up. When they
least need it.

It just seems to me that at best JKR means for Molly to be a comedic
character, rather than a bastion of the purpose or strength of
motherhood. And as a comedic character, Molly is necessarily flat.
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Ø       Jeremiah:

       I think some modern forms of Feminism look at the mother/home-maker
role as deplorable but I don't see how JKR disagrees with me. I think we
have a difference of interpretation.

My own mother was a home-maker until my father couldn't be the
"bread-winner" so she sucked-it-up and got a job to help out and that was
1980. Today she still makes more than my father. I think we all have a
tendency to see Mollie as she relates to a woman in a similar situation in
our lives be it our own mother r a friend's or even a close relative. Our
reaction depends on how that person's life played out. And I have never seen
Mollie as "comedic." I think she says funny things on occasion but no more
than anyone else.

I don't see Mollie stirring anyone up. I do, however, see her an standing up
for her views and protecting her children, husband and family. Even her
argument with Sirius in OotP ended with her having compassion for Sirius
(eventually, but finding it, none the less) and Harry's loss.

And, isn't there strength in motherhood? I can't have a child… I can't go
through the process of creating a new life… I think it is a great thing to
be able to do… kinda gross, sure, but heck! I can't do it… it's a huge
responsibility for someone to take on (male or female). Now, I do not hold
women on a pedestal just because a baby comes out of them but I do believe
that mothers who care for their children the best that they can (and fathers
who can do the same… however the parent(s) wish to express their role as it
relates to gender and financial situation: stay-at-home-dads, working
mothers, single parents, etc.) are doing something special and taking on an
enormous task to care for and raise a child.

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> >>Jeremiah:
> Bellatrix. What would cause someone to go and be a DE? As a woman,
> what would it take?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Again, I see more stereotyping here rather than complexity.
Bellatrix is a weaker version of Lady Macbeth, anything for the cause
but without children of her own to sacrifice, all speech but no sleep
walking aftermath. She's hot for Lord Voldemort and it seems to end
pretty much there. I just don't see the complexity.

I think your questions point to a *possible* complexity, but not one
JKR has seemed interested in exploring.
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Ø       Jeremiah:

       But I still ask, what would it have taken to get her to do that? And
I do think it's sad that JKR has address it yet.

Hot for LV? Well, maybe. (yuck) Maybe. LOL. Maybe she's had the desire to
feel like "one of the boys" and scrambles at scraps to prove herself. She
boasts in ways that reflect LV's own boastful lies. She is a vocal supporter
with extremely high defenses and must have deep, deep fears about herself
and her family to be that boisterous and eager to be cruel. Something is
definitely stinky about her past. (hee hee… Lady Macbeth… )

---------------------------------------------------
> >>Jeremiah:
> And Umbridge... She is career-motivated. She has a very dark and
> sinister side to her.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But, but! Umbridge doesn't have any *other* side! She's dark and
sinister, and that's about it. I mean, she's a great villain (as is
Bellatrix for that matter). Absolutely wonderful to hiss at as she
stalks across the stage twirling her mustache, but we don't have any
hints of deeper things going on.

Which, honestly I don't think JKR *has* to bring to the table. But
it does mean that neither Umbridge or Bellatrix bring the same depth
to the bad guys that Barty Crouch, Jr. with his daddy-issues does.

Though... Perhaps Narcissa fulfills this role. She's no white-hat by
any means. But she does love her son (and husband apparently), so
that does put her at Barty, Jr. level, I think.

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Ø       Jeremiah:

       I think Umbridge does. I think she has a frilly soft side deep within
but since she is so toad-like she cannot convince others to see her that
way. She has adopted the cruelty and ridicule that stems from her "ugliness"
(and the external perception of her physicality) and uses it to gain her own
power. IMO she has "learned" to be cruel in the cruelest ways. Sure, I've
extrapolated a bit, but I remember how I used to be as a kids, fat, geeky. I
was treated cruelly and I remember the moment when I had the choice to be
like the others who treaded me with hatred or to be compassionate and
loving. Umbridge hasn't learned that you can get more bees with honey than
with vinegar. She's quite tragic to me.

       -------------------------------------------------

> >>Jeremiah:
> Hermione is extremely complex.

Betsy Hp:
Agreed. Though, not an adult, so this doesn't really fit into
Julie's quest for a complex adult female character. <g>

       --------------------------------------------------

Ø       Jeremiah:

       You got me… I wasn't thinking…

       --------------------------------------------

> >>Jeremiah:
> Ginny is very complicated.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Only if there's something up with her in HBP. Otherwise she's
Harry's sugar and a bit of recess before his battle with the big
bad. Oh, and his baby-making machine for the wonderful epilogue. <g>

However, if it turns out that her utterly horrid behavior in HBP
really *was* horrid behavior and not short-hand for "spunky girl!"
than yes, I'll grant you Ginny's complexity. At this point though,
it's still an open question. And Ginny is still not an adult. <eg>

Betsy Hp

       ---------------------------------------------

Ø       Jeremiah:

       You got me there, too.

             However, I still see Ginny as being complex. She seems so sweet
on the surface and then you find out she's very devious and ingenious. I'm
sure Hermione wouldn't have Ginny as a friend if Ginny was boring and trite.
Ginny has learned a lot from Fred and George. She's had Bill and Charlie to
look up to because, IMO I don't think they look at her as a "girl" but just
as a younger sibling. Mollie never scolds her for not being "lady-like" and,
yet, Ginny has wonderful manners and is a well behaved person. Ok, she like
to make-out with lots of boys… big deal. So do I. LOL. But I don't think
she's very one-dimensional.

I also feel there is a lot of emphasis placed on how much a reader is told
vs. how much a reader can comprehend. (Not trying to say anyone is a dummy…
my god I've had a lot of fantastic posts from all of you, so you're all
quite brilliant… ) I see many books where the male characters aren't totally
explained but through reading about them you can figure out their history…
or possible history.

Let us not forget Fleur. I thought she was some trite-boring-mushy-spoiled
chick who should be shot between the eyes to save her from the misery of her
own life and then… Blam! She's in for the long haul. She love someone for
what is within… There is a reason she was picked to be a tri-wizard champion
and I'm sure it will come into play during DH. (Honestly, did anyone else
think she was going to still want bill after he was mauled? I didn't').

Now, what I whole-heartedly agree to is this: The story line is very
male-centric. Harry, Sirius, Lupin, James, Wormtail, Voldemort, Dumbledore,
Malfoy. .we can tell the story using only these characters. I do believe
that Ron and Hermione are interesting but could be written out. So, I see
how the feminist-perspective could be riled (and I agree that there needs to
be more female influence in the plot) but when the author is a woman… a
single parent who has worked hard to make this story happen… as well as her
own life… then I don't think it holds much water, to be honest.

Does this mean that women can't be dangerous to the promotion and welfare of
other women? Of course they can but I don't see it happening by the writing
or these novels. (Characters in the novels do it but not JKR).

Plus, what's a good story without a few stock characters… Like "angry"
Filch, "bumbling" Hagrid and the "oh-so-feminine" Lockhart ('cause if you
say he's Gay I'm gonna scream! I hate the stereotype that implies Lockhart's
wardrobe has to do with his sexuality… 'cause that would imply Hermione's
bushy hair might mean she's a lesbian and I'm not going there, either…). Oh,
that's funny... Hagrid has background... but he is a "dummy" most of the
time.

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