Wanted! Complex Female Adult Character: (was:Re: ESE!McGonagall...

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 164681

Alla:
> > Why do we need the strong female character just for the sake of
> > having one? What if JKR felt that good story could be written
> > **only** with the male characters in it? Does she **owe** us the
> > presence of female characters in the story? I would say not at 
all.
> > Just as if she wished to write a story about women only, as long 
as
> > it is good story, IMO it is all that counts.
>
Julie:
> I never said nor think that JKR "owes" us well-developed female
> characters, I just pointed out that the male characters are for the
> most part more well-developed and multi-layered than the female
> characters (especially the adult ones).

Sherry:
This is actually something that's always bothered me about the 
criticism
around no strong female characters. I can imagine that if the story 
had
been Hermione Granger and the ... we might have seen more interesting 
women
in the books. But Harry's POV seems that we naturally see more of the 
male
characters. I am not a psychologist and I don't have children, but 
I've
lived with friends who have three boys, at times when the boys were 
young
and when they were pre teens or teenagers. They were closer to their 
mom,
more in tune with females in their lives when they were younger, and 
they
seemed to need to spend more time with their dad and other guys in 
their
teens. I think it's a sort of natural part of Harry's age that as we 
are
seeing things through his view, we are seeing more male characters
developed.

Ceridwen:
I absolutely agree with Sherry.  Harry is a young male reaching for 
adulthood.  He will naturally be more drawn to adult males as role 
models instead of females.  It's part of learning.  He is more 
obsessed with learning about James than about Lily, he is drawn to 
Dumbledore more than to Minerva, and to Remus more than to Tonks.  
The only flip I see there is that he seems to prefer Molly's company 
to Arthur's, but that could just be that Arthur is usually at work 
until late and he sees more of Molly.  This could also be the last 
vestiges of his need for the Nurturing!Female, and for Harry, she is 
his only good example of a mother figure.

We just talked about Jung and archetypes in my Fiction class - talk 
about coincidences, that was just last night.  ;)  Jung believed, 
whether you agree with him or not, that mothers/women are seen in the 
nurturing role while fathers/men are seen as providers and 
protectors, and that this is ingrained into the Collective 
Subconscious.  Since Harry is in a position to need protection, then 
of course the story would revolve around more male characters than 
female characters.  As the Hero (another archetype), Harry is able to 
see to his own nurturing, from what we see in the books.  His Wicked 
Stepmother and her family (another archetype) has treated him badly 
and cast him off.  The Hero usually does break away from women's 
apron strings, live in a malecentric world to learn his Hero's craft, 
then go out and vanquish whatever demons he needs to vanquish to 
fulfill his role as Hero.  Since Harry is a male, he will also be 
learning his archetypal role as provider and protector.

I accept that, since Harry is a male, he will take more notice of 
males, and he will seek out the company of older males as he matures 
and learns this role in life.  I agree that if the story had been 
about Hermione Granger and (book title here), she would have sought 
out more females as companions and as mentors.  We would have seen 
strong women filling the roles of Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus and 
Snape.  She may even have had a bonding with Househusband!Arthur, 
since Molly would have been working late at the MoM.  But, that 
wasn't the story that JKR's muse presented.

Alla:
Does it bother me that Petunia and Lily and Minerva are not well
developed despite her promise? Well, there is one more book left, so
I will wait, but even if they would not be and I can still enjoy the
story, it would not bother me.

BUT does it bother me that she felt a need to say that? Yes,
**that** absolutely does bother me, IF she did not intend to do that
in book 7.

Ceridwen:
It bothers me a lot, as someone who has tried her hand at writing.  
Sometimes it seems that stories want, in part, to write themselves.  
When JKR said Harry just appeared to her fully formed and with a 
story, I believe her.

I think that JKR goes to lengths already, within the confines of the 
Harry Filter, to show strong women in positions of power in the 
Wizarding World.  She does mention Headmistresses, and female 
Ministers of Magic.  Witches have contributed to historic 
developments in the WW, and witches play equally on the Quidditch 
teams.  Withces are not discouraged from applying for courses of 
study or for jobs that we have seen.  Hermione and Ginny are 
presented as powerful young witches.  McGonagall is shown to be 
competent in her subject and valued enough to be next in line to the 
headship of Hogwarts.

Books that are merely there to present a political viewpoint are not 
always well-written, because the author tries to force his or her 
opinion onto characters and situations which may be rebelling against 
them (see above about stories wanting to write themselves).  The end 
results are contrived and often stilted.  By sticking to her original 
vision, JKR has written a series of books that has not lost its focus 
or its interest to fans, the way some other series have done.  She 
has shown us things at the edges of Harry's vision that promise more 
from the WW than is presented on the page.

In my opinion, of course.

Alla:
And unless she punishes Snape, she is a child abuse supporter and a
very bad writer <bg> On the other hand, if she makes Snape evil,
that would be a real cliche and bad lesson for the kids.  *(snip)*

Ceridwen:
Absolutely!  If I had my way, Lupinlore's chipper would be very 
busy.  If Lupinlore had his way, my books would collect dust and I'd 
throw myself onto the sword of fanfic.  We all have our cherished 
hoped-for outcomes.  I doubt if any of us will have all of our hopes 
answered.  But, my most cherished hope will be answered if JKR is 
able to maintain the same quality of storytelling through to the end, 
allowing the story to reach its natural conclusion, rather than try 
to force it into a mold that would make Deathly Hallows the worst, 
most contrived, book of the series.

Ceridwen.