[HPforGrownups] Father Figures / Hermione's Path / The Molly Question (long!) (was:Wanted!Comple

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 164772

Betsy Hp:
I feel like this particular thread is breaking into three different
discussion points. So I'm going to seperate them out as I see them
(cleverly using only one post to do so <g>) and see what holds
interest.

Debbie:
Ok, I'll bite on some of your hooks.

Betsy Hp:
Fandom has never spent time wondering when
McGonagall is going to get off her duff and become a mother-figure
for Harry. But between every book since Lupin's introduction there's
a large group of readers just sure Lupin is going to have a huge role
in the next book as one of Harry's father-figures. I think there's a
reason for that.

Part of it has to do with the amount of personal time Lupin spent
with Harry in PoA. Part of it has to do with the emotional
connection Lupin made with Harry: an emotional connection no other
adult has ever made. Lupin was able to slow Harry down while Harry
was in the middle of "mission mode" and get Harry to think. (Once
after sneaking out to Hogsmeade, and more obviously in the Shrieking
Shack.) McGonagall has never done the same.

Debbie:
To the extent that Lupin did or will occupy the father-figure role, it
consisted of his ability to rethink his ill-conceived missions and create a
sense of calm.  Overall, though, I think we don't see Lupin take on more of
a father-figure role because Lupin himself is reluctant to assume that
role.  In PoA, he only does so when Harry is obviously out of line and in
need of correction.

Lupin's avoidance of that role is consistent with his overall portrayal.  He
is an example of a good person whose affliction and status as victim has
affected him to the point of near paralysis.  He has absorbed the WW's fear
of werewolves and turned it into a form of self-loathing, so that *he*
believes he is unsuited to teach at Hogwarts.  I've wondered how hard
Dumbledore had to cajole him to take the DADA position.  I bet it was very
hard.  OTOH, I would not be surprised if he volunteered to go undercover
with the other werewolves.  He gets to punish himself in the guise of making
himself useful.

It's also worth pointing out that Lupin's errors are ones of omission.  He
*didn't* tell Dumbledore about the Marauder's activities.  He tried to avoid
telling Harry he knew James.  And, of course, he didn't take his potion the
night of the Shrieking Shack.  Being a father-figure to Harry would be too
dangerous for him, and it's much easier for him to do nothing.  This is one
reason I can't buy Pippin's ESE!Lupin story; he's too passive a character to
every make an affirmative decision to join the forces of evil.  And
storywise, he doesn't need to, as his passivity has caused plenty of trouble
as it is.  See -- I find his flaws very convincing as they are.  He
exemplifies the evil that ensues when good people do nothing.


Betsy Hp:
And finally, the big bad, The Molly Question (long!):

> >>zgirnius:
> Percy was not thrown out, he left, upon attaining his majority,
> obtaining a good job, and getting into a huge fight with his
> father. Trouble had been brewing there for quite some time, but I'm
> not sure what Molly could have done to improve matters.

Betsy Hp:
Been a good Mom? Delt with the problem as and when it came up?
Stopped encouraging her children to look at their father's job (and
therefore their father) as a massive joke? Talked with Arthur about
his new principles and either come to grips with them or come to some
sort of compromise that the two of them could present to their
children together instead of deriding and undermining everything
Arthur held dear? Not raised her children to believe popularity and
money are the two marks of success?

Debbie:
Molly is hardly the exemplar of perfect motherhood, but as a slightly
imperfect mom myself, I'll have to take issue with the wholesale
condemnation.  Molly did what she thought best under the circumstances.  Not
all her choices were inspired, and some of them were awful, but she is not
neglectful, mean or abusive, and she makes it clear that she loves them
all.  Those sweaters are a sign of her love, and every one of her kids
(including Percy) knows that.

As for some of the other points --
I don't see any evidence that she sees Arthur's job as a massive joke.  She
is frustrated that his views have held him back at the Ministry.  She thinks
he deserves better.  And sometimes that frustration shows, as for example,
the dress robes incident.  But that doesn't make Arthur, or his job, a joke.


I'll admit that Molly and Arthur aren't very effective at the good cop, bad
cop means of discipline.  Molly's yelling is ineffective, but Arthur's tacit
endorsement of some forms of mischief, such as the Twins' taking the Flying
Ford Anglia to pick up Harry in CoS, is equally useless.

IMO, Molly views government (Ministry) service as a mark of success.  Odd,
that, since Arthur has not done well by the Ministry at all, but she was
quite pleased with Percy's first job and tried to move the Twins in the same
direction.

As for money being the mark of success, that's not the inference I draw from
Molly's actions.  Rather, being poor is tough.  It's especially tough on the
genteel poor, who rub shoulders with more affluent folks on a regular
basis.  Molly knows this and she knows how her children are affected by it.
For example, I think Molly's actions in the infamous dress robes incident in
GoF reflect her embarrassment that she is unable to afford anything better
for her son, while Harry can afford the best of everything.

And all that stuff Arthur has in the garage -- it's probably contraband and
Arthur could get himself in trouble if his superiors at the Ministry knew he
was enchanting Muggle artifacts in his spare time.  If I were Molly I
wouldn't be too keen on that either.

> >>zgirnius:
> Percy being the weakest of her offspring? Or do you mean Ron? I'm
> honestly not sure what you mean here.

Debbie:
Personally, I think Percy is weaker than Ron.  Percy can be a bit of a pawn
of his current commanding officer, whoever or whatever it may be at the time
(Molly, Crouch, Umbridge, rules, you name it).  Ron resists expectations,
even if he does it passively at times.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, Ron, definitely. Unlike Percy, Ron fights her. But since he
doesn't have the insight (or the makeup) of the twins, he doesn't
fight her correctly, in a way she respects. So Molly punishes Ron by
either passively ignoring him or actively setting him up as a fool.

Debbie:
I do have a theory about this.  Molly operates on a reward system.  All
accomplishments -- such as becoming a prefect -- get rewarded.  But this
system works much better for older children than younger ones.  The older
kids can be surprised with a reward.  Ron, OTOH, knows he'll get nothing
unless he measures up to all who have gone before him.  Unlike the twins,
who have their own built-in support system in each other, can comfortably
avoid the system and merrily go their own way.  Ron, however, is sensitive.
He cares enough to want parental approval, and unfortunately, Molly doesn't
give it because he hasn't done anything yet (Percy is like Ron, but he
overworks so he'll get the approval, and he is hurt enough to leave in OOP
because his promotion got him derision instead of approval).

And it's not like she doesn't ever passively ignore the Twins or set them up
as fools.  When Ron was made prefect, Molly crowed that it was everyone in
the family, conveniently ignoring the anti-prefect twins.

Betsy Hp:
But Molly has no say in Arthur's career decisions. Her strong
dislike of his current position contrasts strongly with Arthur's love
for it. If it was ever discussed nothing was resolved, IMO.

Debbie:
I don't read this the same way at all.  Molly *does* dislike Arthur's
current (former) position, but I think she appreciates that his principles,
i.e., his fondness for Muggles, have held him back.  I know some people see
Molly as not sharing his principles, but I don't agree.  I think Ron's very
forcefully expressed views on the subject at age 12 reflect what he learned
at home.  And Molly probably did most of that teaching.  Besides, Molly lost
two brothers in VWI to the followers of an anti-Muggle maniac.   Surely she
sees how divisive that sort of thinking is.

Betsy Hp (re the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident):
By shutting Arthur down, the twins assist their mother (unconsciously
of course). I think the twins also help out their mom by beating
down the sons that are most linked to Arthur (Percy and Ron) and I
think this goes back to the twins and Molly having an oddly symbiotic
relationship.

Debbie:
Interesting thought.  I don't see the Weasley kids as linked to one parent
or another.  I could make a good case that Percy and Ron are like Molly in
their sensitivities.  For example, of all the Weasleys, the two most
outwardly sensitive about the family's poverty are Molly and Ron.  (The
twins are sensitive *to* it, as when they comment on the cost of all the
Lockhart books, but I think it is sensitivity to the drain on their parents;
they don't appear embarrassed by the family finances.)  The twins are more
like Arthur in that they accept their circumstances with more equanimity,
and their inventing parallels Arthur's tinkering with Muggle artifacts.

Betsy Hp:
Molly is not upset about the muggle-baiting, she's upset about the
Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes. So the twins (and the trio) merrily move
along thinking it's perfectly okay to attack those weaker than you
because Arthur forfeits the field to Molly's rather silly point.
Arthur is weak and Molly is stupid. Neither are very good parents
because of that.

Debbie:
But Molly only enters at the tail end of the discussion.  She has no idea
what has happened at the Dursleys.  She's just connecting Arthur's fury to
the last incident, which was her discovery of the Weasley's Wizard Wheezes
order forms in their room.

Debbie
who could write a dissertation on the Weasley family dynamics, but is trying
to spare the list <g>


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