[HPforGrownups] Back to The Plan (Was:Re: Father Figures)

[Jeremiah LaFleur]

No: HPFGUIDX 164799

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups%40yahoogroups.com>,
"justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...>
wrote:

> Carol:
Still, in light of what actually did happen (and possibly the death of
Sirius Black after all Lupin went through to prove him innocent to
HRH), I can see why [Lupin would] be unhappy with himself. If only he'd
just explained everything to Dumbledore in the first place. DD would
have talked to Black, found out about Scabbers, had Pettigrew arrested,
and Voldie would still be vapor.

Annemehr:
Well okay, but *if* DD would have wanted to *prevent* LV regaining a
physical body, by preventing Pettigrew's escape, then why isn't LV a
vapor *now,* when he so easily could be?

"'You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?' called Voldemort, his
scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. 'Above such
brutality, are you?'" [OoP ch. 36, US p. 814]

(Well, actually, no he isn't. Dumbledore cannot be too noble to *kill*
the likes of LV, if he is not too noble to charge a 16-year-old boy
with the task. [HBP ch. 23, US pp. 510-512])

Anyway, we know that at the time of that duel in the Ministry,
Dumbledore was already aware that LV had at least one Horcrux to tie
LV's soul to Earth. Harry had told him what LV had said in the
graveyard, that LV had gone "further than anybody along the path that
leads to immortality." DD told Harry in HBP that his conclusion was
that LV had made Horcruxes, in the plural -- and indeed that he had
suspected such a thing ever since Harry had shown him Riddle's
destroyed diary. [HBP ch. 23, US pp. 501-502]

So, DD is not too noble to kill the likes of Voldemort. And, DD was at
least pretty certain that if he had tried to kill LV in that MoM duel,
he would merely have returned him to the vapor state. Everything could
have returned to pre-GoF conditions, except for Sirius's death. Yet,
DD did not do it.

Why wouldn't DD do it?

The inescapable conclusion is that DD *wants* LV to have a body these
days. It *has* to be part of the Plan -- that Plan that we *still*
don't know, and which inevitably entails the cost of the many
collateral deaths we read about in HBP.

And, given that, it's also reasonable to conclude that Pettigrew was
supposed to escape.

Annemehr,
saying, it's Guilty!DD, I'm telling you...
===================================

Jeremiah:
Woah! That's a lot of blame.

Ok, First: LV asks "Above such brutality" and we know, for a fact, according
to the Wizard Cards that DD has killed/destroyed before. Teh Dark Wizard
Grindlewald. HOWEVER... at the MoM DD knew of the prophecy and, therefore,
knew he "should" not be theo one (my emphasis on should) and that Harry
needs to be the one who does the "Killing of the Riddle." Second, if LV has
more Horcruxes then reducing LV to vapor would only lead to LV coming back
again... and again.. and again... and (how many of them are there?) yeah.
So, Dd wasn't being Guilty!Dumbledore as much as
WayTooSmartToScrewItUp!Dumbledore.

Also, DD never "charged" Harry with the task LV did. LV could "choose"
Neville and the books would have been called Neville Longbottm and the
Sorcerer's Stone and we'd have some freaky-geeky Harry Potter with a
Rememberall... And this group would be NLforGrownups.

I think Annemeher is operating under the assumption tht Dumbledore knows
every single thing that happens in the entire WW. We are only told by Ron
(in his infinite wisdom...re: sacrasm here) something along the lines of "I
think he [Dumbledore] *pretty much* knows everything that goes on around
here" and that's only "pretty much" and the refernce is only on Hogwarts.

Inescapable conclusion, huh? Yeah. LV does need to have a body so he can
die. he also needs to be knocked down to one soul. And, yes. pettigrew
needed to escape, but I fail to see any real evidence that DD "made" any of
that happen.

Way too much blame, IMO. And, Why wouldn't DD "do it?" Well, given the
evidence in cannon... would you? DD knows better than to just go in, all
150+ years of him, and act the Rambo-wannabe, flaining wands and incantating
(or whatever it is a wizard does) with a "gonna-get-the-bad-guy" attitude.
It's skill, cunning, patience and stealth that wins this game. Just like
Wizard Chess. And IMO that's why the game was brought up so early in the
series.


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