Snape, Lily & the Potions textbook

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 164844

Cassy wrote:
> Very interesting points, wynleaf (and Magpie and Carol)!
> 
> I duly note that Hermione never failed with Snape's instructions (he
had the book!) - also that Snape takes his teaching seriously & that
Lupin praises Snape's skill with the Wolfsbane Potion. (Incidentally,
I never doubted that it was Snape's *handwriting* inside that
> textbook.) You are right, also, to point out the revisions and
> crossings out ... I guess Potions geniuses are made as well as born!

Carol:
I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion. Are you taking
slughorn's comments about Lily's natural Potions ability to indicate
that Severus's genius wasn't equally natural? We know that he was a
DADA genius (coming to school knowing more hexes than most seventh
years) and you concede that he was a Potions genius as an adult (the
Wolfbane Potion, etc.). The crossings out, which apply to the spells
as well as the Potions hints, indicate that he *experimented* to
achieve his results. Why would experimentation not be natural genius?
Thomas Edison experimented to achieve his results. So did Watson and
Crick, the discoverers of DNA. And genius need not be confined to one
field. 
<snip>
Cassy:
> Apart from Slughorn's extravagant praise ("One of the brightest I
ever taught", "intuitive grasp of potion-making"), I would suggest
that Snape *respected* Lily (hence his curious reluctance to abuse her
to Harry), which leads me to think (Snape being Snape!) that she must
have been at least as talented as him. <snip>

Carol:
You're leaping from Slughorn's "extravagant praise," which could be
valid but which we have no solid evidence to justify, to Severus's
reaction to Lily, for which there is even less evidence. Look at Snape
in his classroom, from his "shimmering cauldron" speech to his
comments to his students (he always knows exactly which step or steps
they've gotten wrong to produce those particular results). And as I
noted earlier, he has his (improved) Potions directions memorized and
writes them on the board with a flick of his wand. (Unlike Slughorn,
he never tells the students to follow the directions out of the book.)
It's highly unlikely that such intensive knowledge is acquired from
Lily. It appears to be a combination of natural ability and intensive
study. (No doubt some of the books that line his walls in Spinner's
End are Potions books.)

Cassy: 
> In any case, I like the idea that Lily & Snape collaborated in NEWT
level Potions, without the Marauders – (neither James nor Sirius
possessed the requisite subtly to qualify, IMHO, though I am not sure
about Lupin!) <snip>

Carol:
Slughorn requires only an E, not an O, for his NEWT Potions students,
so it's quite likely that MWPP, or at least James and Sirius, were in
his NEWT Potions class along with Severus and Lily. PP is no slouch at
Potions, as well, given his performance in resurrecting Voldemort,
including Fetal!mort. (Lupin claims that he was never good at Potions,
so perhaps he wasn't in the class. Still, he might have scraped an E.
Impossible to say.)

Cassy:
 I would not want to detract from Snape's creativity as an inventor of
jinxes ... but could it be significant that from the very beginning of
PS/SS, we learn that Snape's natural inclination is for *DADA*? (And
when Snape declares himself at the end of Book 6, it is to claim
ownership of a *spell*.)

Carol:
He also seems to know quite well where Harry is getting his sudden
high marks in Potions, and it's not from Lily's genes. (BTW, how does
Slughorn, who must be eighty-something to have taught Tom Riddle and
either a Half-Blood or a Pureblood given his attitude toward
Muggleborns, know about a Muggle concept like genes?)

Cassy: 
> b) But isn't the moral of the story that Harry shouldn't
*underestimate* Snape, (not that he shouldn't trust Snape)?

Carol:
If so, how does crediting *Lily* with Severus's Potions improvements
help to improve Harry's estimation of Snape's abilities? I'm not
following you here. In any case, he's never doubted Snape's Potions
abilities.

Cassy:

> I don't want Snape to be vindicated as a good *Potions* teacher
(even despite his Bezoar tip). :-) His bullying approach has hardly
helped Harry to perform in the subject, based on the evidence we've
seen. <sniP>

Carol:
But there's a difference between Snape's teaching methods, which are
highly effective for the eight students who got O's on their Potions
OWLS (Hermione, Draco, Pansy, Blaise Zabini, Theo Nott, Ernie
Macmillan, and two Ravenclaws) if not for Ron and Harry, neither of
whom makes much effort in Snape's class, or Neville, who's afraid of
him, and Snape's knowledge of potion-making, which is demonstrated in
every book. (It's implied that he makes the Mandrake Restorative
Potion in CoS and DD relies on him for Wolfbane Potion and Veritaserum
in other books. And note the curtains of liquid fire, each requiring a
different antidote to allow the drinker to walk through them, in
SS/PS. "Bottle fame, brew glory, even put a stopper in death" is no
empty boast.

Cassy:
> But if Harry has ever really underestimated someone, it is his
mother, IMHO. <snip>

Carol:
Very true. I think, for example, that Lily (whose first wand was "a
nice wand for Charm work") must have placed the Fidelius Charm on
Peter, and she may have been an Unspeakable, as some posters have
suggested. But to give her credit for Snape's brilliance in Potions
after five books demonstrating his brilliance in the subject (he takes
only the very best in his NEWT Potions class, but takes a more
democratic approach to DADA, which is not an elite subject but a
necessary self-defense course for all students) is to take away all
the beautiful irony of Harry's learning Potions from Snape without
knowing he's Snape and identifying with the young Severus without
knowing who he was. 

If you want to believe in a Snape/Lily connection, fine. But let's not
give Lily credit for the brilliance Snape has demonstrated as Potions
Master from "The Potions Master" chapter onward.

Carol, who doesn't think that Lily made that snarky comment about
stuffing Bezoars down "his" throat any more than she invented Sectumsempra