Snape, Lily & the Potions textbook/Papa Hagrid

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164898

> b) Magpie: I think that Slughorn was perfectly serious when he said
> that Lily was good at Potions, and that this could be a connection 
she
> had to Snape. Snape could have admired Lily's Potions skill too. 
What
> I don't see any evidence for is the leap that Slughorn says Lily 
was
> good at Potions means that Lily must be person good at Potions 
Harry
> learned from in HBP. That, to me, seems like an odd leap, and one 
that
> leads nowhere. Harry already knows Lily was good at Potions ... It
> just doesn't interest [him] much.
> 
> Cassy: But isn't *that* odd? Odd, I mean, that Lily's talent 
should be
> of such little consequence. Odd too, that we have evidence to 
suggest
> that Lily & Snape were both fabulously gifted at Potions (Slughorn
> described Lily as one of the brightest students he'd ever taught) 
when
> they were probably in the same N.E.W.T. class and no-one in Harry's
> world has even mentioned the possibility that they might have been
> working together. Now that is odd, IMHO! 

Magpie:
I see why the Snape/Lily Potions connection seems like it might go 
somehwere, but I don't think it's odd Harry doesn't think they must 
have been friends because of it. Draco and Hermione are both good in 
Potions, and they don't work together. 

Cassy: 
> As for the 'odd leap' you mention, I don't think it's so strange 
when
> everything Harry does in Potions seems to remind Slughorn of Lily.
> Granted, Slughorn is not going to suppose that Harry inherited any
> talent from Snape, but why does Slughorn need to *keep* referencing
> Lily at all? If she was just decent at Potions, but her son 
appears to
> be brilliant, then one might have thought he would let it drop 
after a
> couple of lessons and start praising Harry in his own right? 

Magpie:
It's odd that Slughorn's connecting Harry with his mother, who was 
an excellent Potions student, is supposed to lead to Lily making up 
dark spells and writing in Snape's Potions book and be the HBP--
something Snape himself claims to be. Slughorn continues to praise 
Harry in his own right because Slughorn loved Lily and feels guilty 
about her when he looks at Harry. And also he tends to always deal 
with people through connections he already knows.

Cassy:
Instead,
> it's almost like Slughorn is experiencing déjà vu! "Unorthodox, but
> what a stroke of inspiration, Harry ... I really don't know where 
you
> get these brain waves, my boy ... unless ... it's just your 
mother's
> genes coming out in you!" Even the trick  with the bezoar strikes 
him
> as something Lily would have done: "You've got a nerve, boy! ... 
Oh,
> you're like your mother ... well, I can't fault you ... a bezoar 
would
> certainly act as an antidote to all these potions!" And then again:
> "That's the individual spirit a real potion-maker needs!" said
> Slughorn happily, before Harry could reply. "Just like his mother, 
she
> had the same intuitive grasp of potion making, it's undoubtedly 
from
> Lily he gets it..." (HBP18)
 (One has to wonder where Snape *was* when
> Lily was impressing Slughorn - sitting next to her, perhaps?)

Magpie:
Actually, I don't get "deja vu" there, but the opposite. Lily means 
a lot to Slughorn and Slughorn loves seeing Lily in Harry's work. 
According to the answer in HBP Harry is using Snape's notes, which 
he's come up with after a lot of experimentation. So there's no 
reason to wonder where Snape was when Lily was being praised, 
because there's no reason that Lily has to have been writing 
anything in his book.

> Cassy: I agree. What *would* be interesting, IMHO, would be for 
Harry
> to discover that his mother had a relationship with the Half-Blood
> Prince, which I think is (partly) the significance of the textbook.
> Why would Harry's actions be making Slughorn think of Lily when he 
was
> following Snape's instructions?

Magpie:
Sure, that could be true--but that means Snape and Lily were 
friends, not that the HBP was really Lily.
 
> Magpie: The HBP being Snape is a turnaround and dramatic -- Harry's
> freaked out by the idea the person he came to think of as a friend 
was
> his most hated enemy. 
> 
> Cassy: Although my point is that all this ultimately achieves is
> another opportunity for Harry to convict Snape at the end of HBP. 
He
> decides that the Prince showed a predisposition for evil & that he
> (Harry) was a fool not to have seen it before.  Thus, the book 
becomes
> something of a red herring for those who believe in DDM!Snape.

Magpie:
Oh, I think it does more than give Harry an opportunity to convict 
Snape! On the contrary, it gives him the opportunity to defend Snape 
as an ally throughout the whole book.

> Cassy: Well, if Snape invented the spells (some of which Harry 
found
> very useful) and Snape & Lily were *both* responsible for the 
Potions,
> that wouldn't be too bad, IMHO. And I think it *would* be ironic if
> Hermione turned out to have a point about the Prince's gender, 
despite
> being wrong about the handwriting! (Also, if it turns out to be for
> Lily's sake that Snape protected Harry in front of Slughorn, did he
> feel that Harry had a right to the book, I wonder?)

Magpie:
I think it would be fine if Snape and Lily worked on Potions 
together, if that's the basis for a friendship that's established in 
the last book. I just consider that a separate issue from Lily 
actually being the Prince. If Snape himself was shown to actually be 
bad at Potions I'd consider that a clue, but he's always seemed 
really good at Potions.

Bart:
But that's the whole point: Hagrid does NOT see the world the way 
everybody else does. Let's take the detention. What would Harry have 
said, for example, if the detention was to test out a new Quidditch 
field? From Hagrid's point of view, this is what the detention is; a 
fun outing disguised as a detention. He just doesn't get it that 
Harry and Ron might see it differently. And that's the point
to Hagrid. He is a good man, but does not see things the same way 
others do, and does not understand why others would see anything 
differently. When he does realize this, he overcompensates.

Magpie:
But why does this make him like a father? Even if he thinks looking 
for monsters in the forest is fun,Harry and Hermione are still being 
accused of a crime that was his fault, one that they've also lost a 
lot of house points for. It still comes down to Hagrid breaking the 
law and needing Harry to do the right thing, then letting Harry for 
some reason take care of it instead of himself, then letting Harry 
and Hermione be falsely accused and lose house points and the 
goodwill of their house--for which he doesn't apologize and I don't 
remember him ever acknowledging. I honestly also don't recall him 
indicating he thought the detention was fun for the kids in his 
dialogue--he seemed to me like he'd completely forgotten why they 
had detention. I tend to remember him more often crying and beating 
his breast over his mistakes (like giving Quirrel the secret to 
getting past Fluffy) rather than overcompensating when he realized 
his view of the world is wrong (in fact, it seems like a running 
joke that he never gets that, so everyone else has to just adjust 
their behavior around him and look after themselves). 

What I don't get is what this makes Hagrid's relationships with 
Harry like that of a father and son, since once again it's all about 
everyone having to deal with Hagrid's special way of seeing the 
world. Sirius seems like a far better guardian to me.

-m