Lupin/ Father Figures

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 164992

I decided to go back and reread the Lupin bits in the books before
responding to all the Lupin comments from last week.  It took a bit of time
. . . .

Carol:
Considering that he "forgot" to take his potion, endangered three
students by transforming in their presence on a full-moon night,
failed to tell Dumbledore how Sirius Black could get into the castle
even after Black had slashed up the Fat Lady's painting and terrified
Ron with a twelve-inch knife, and nearly committed murder in front of
those same three students, I'd say his judgment is fairly sound in
terms of his unsuitability to teach. (Or we could blame it all on the
DADA Curse. :-) )

Debbie:
It's too bad he kept recklessly endangering his students because, unlike
some others on the Hogwarts staff (::coughHagridcough::), he was a rather
effective teacher.  The DADA curse played a part in his dismissal, but it
seems to work by exploiting each DADA professor's weaknesses, and Lupin's is
a pervasive fear that his friends will desert him if he is discovered to
have failed them in any respect.

Carol:
(And BTW, we know that DD placed an ad in the Daily Prophet after
Lockhart was incapacitated; it's one of the things he mentions in the
post-Basilisk interview with Harry. So probably that's how Lupin found
out about the job, and DD, given both the Black situation and his
policy of sheltering strays, not to mention that he actually knew
something about Dark creatures, would have been happy to hire him.)

Debbie:
I appreciate your encyclopedic knowledge of canon; I had forgotten that DD
had placed an ad.  Yet since Lupin seems to view himself as all but
unemployable, I'm not convinced he would respond to an ad.  After Lockhart
(who *is* the type to respond to an ad), I think DD had to recruit the DADA
professors, and after GoF, he ran out of options.

Carol:
I don't think Lupin fails to be a father figure to
Harry because it's too dangerous. Too weak or too passive I'll buy.
He's very secretive and doesn't like self-exposure, and he never talks
to Harry about the past except in general terms, excusing James's
behavior and so on. Maybe he's afraid to get close to Harry because
talking about the past would reveal his own weaknesses.

Debbie:
This is what I meant by dangerousness.  It was dangerous to Lupin's own
defense mechanisms.

One of the interesting things I noticed in my rereading is that in PoA, on
the day of the first Hogsmeade trip (which Harry had to miss), Lupin took
the initiative to invite Harry into his office after hearing his voice in
the corridor.  It's only after Snape arrives with the wolfsbane potion and
Harry (inartfully) tries to warn Lupin about him that Lupin dismisses
him.  It appears that Lupin realized at that point that he didn't want Harry
to be asking pointed questions about prior relationships, which he wanted to
avoid at all costs.

In addition, while Lupin may fail at being a father figure, in PoA he
demonstrates an ability and an interest in providing the kind of mentorship
one might expect from a good teacher, giving hours of his free time to each
Harry the Patronus, and giving good advice (doing a much better job than
Snape in the Snape's Grudge chapter after Draco sees Harry's head in
Hogsmeade).

Ronin:
Lupin was sort of fatherly in PoA, teaching Harry to get in touch with his
feelings and use his inner strengths to overcome the desperation he felt
when facing the dementors. He wasn't much of a father figure after PoA
though, mainly because he was off watching after the werewolves and couldn't
be around much. Harry seems to look up to Lupin and really care for and
trust him. Lupin does try to help him with his grief and emotional issues,
etc, but he's not a steady father figure. He's more like an uncle I'd say.


Debbie:
Yeah, another interesting thing I noticed from the re-read is how hard Lupin
works to temper Sirius' hotheadedness, particularly in regard to Snape.
After Sirius' confrontation with Snape after Christmas in OOP, it is Lupin
who stresses to Harry how important it is for him to learn Occlumency;
Sirius could not have pulled that off.  Similarly, when they learn that
Snape has discontinued the lessons and Sirius threatens to "have a word"
with Snape, Lupin insists that he'll do it.

Moderating the excesses of a father figure is almost as close to being a
father figure as you can get without actually being one.

Carol:
(I don't think
Lupin sees James in him as Snape and Black do, but he could be afraid
of emotional attachment for fear of losing him. Or he could just
realize that it's inappropriate for a teacher to become emotionally
attached to a student and that the Boy Who Lived should be treated
like any other student as far as possible, anti-Dementor lessons
excepted.)

Debbie:
I think it's the former rather than the latter; becoming friendly with Harry
might also provoke too many probing questions that he doesn't want to
answer.  His lycanthropy is something to be hidden at all costs, and by
extension, his prior relationship with fugitive Sirius.  We also know that
he still has discomfort with emotional attachment even after there is no
need to conceal what he knows about Sirius and the secret passages into
Hogwarts, manifesting in his reluctance to pursue a relationship with
Tonks.

Carol:
But it's also interesting that he takes the
lead in blaming Snape and finding reasons to think that he's evil
after Harry presents his incomplete version of the events on the
tower.

Debbie:
Lupin accepted Dumbledore's word about Snape's loyalty because he trusted
Dumbledore.  Dumbledore was an extremely important mentor to Lupin.  He made
it possible for Lupin to attend Hogwarts.  He welcomed Lupin into the Order
of the Phoenix (band of misfits though it may be), giving him something to
do in VWI when no one would employ him.  He gave Lupin a job.  Most
importantly, he did not desert Lupin after learning the truth about the
Marauders and everything he concealed while Sirius was being hunted as an
escaped murderer.

I attribute Lupin's about face to shock.  Lupin and everyone else at
Hogwarts were too much in shock to process anything except the one
irrefutable fact Harry presented:  Snape killed Dumbledore.  And that fact
confirmed every suspicion about Snape's repentance they'd had over the
years.

Carol:
So will Lupin take some sort of action, preferably related to
Peter Pettigrew rather than Snape, in DH? Or will he make matters
worse again by doing the wrong thing (or nothing)? It's too late for
Lupin to be a father figure to Harry, but he can still help the Order
fight the DEs, and he'd be a useful contact for DDM!Snape if he'd just
put two and two together.

Debbie:
Lupin now has little left to conceal.  Even his love life has been dissected
in public.  So he no longer has a justification for doing nothing.  However,
I have trouble envisioning anything for him to do that will be useful to the
plot ( i.e., that will be visible to the reader).  I can't see him turning
the other werewolves from LV's side; I think his value there consisted of
gleaning information.

Carol:
It's too late for
Lupin to be a father figure to Harry, but he can still help the Order
fight the DEs, and he'd be a useful contact for DDM!Snape if he'd just
put two and two together.

Debbie:
My take is that Snape has burned all his bridges and his challenge will be
to prove his loyalty to Harry through his own actions, without any
assistance from anyone.

Annemehr made a similar suggestion:
Lupin is
the Order member who had been given some inkling of what was to
happen that night. Judging by his reactions, I would guess he did
not know that Dumbledore was to die; that seems to have truly shocked
him. But he may have been forewarned that Snape was about to do
something, at DD's behest, that would appear absolutely traitorous.

[snip] It would give DDM!Snape a contact, and a
particularly safe one with regard to fooling LV, because Lupin is
running with the werewolves these days, and we know the werewolves
and the DEs can be buddies.

Debbie:
Dumbledore keeps his own counsel to an even greater degree than Lupin.  I am
convinced that the plan was between him and Snape alone.  And also that
Dumbledore himself believed that there was a good chance he would not have
to carry it out because he would die before it became necessary.  In that
case it would be better for no one to know of the plan.

Pippin:
Lupin was a member of the original Order of the
Phoenix. That is hardly an example of a good person
doing nothing. There are many other examples in
canon where Lupin takes the initiative, especially in
the Shrieking Shack and in his conversations in OOP.
And of course he claimed to have led his friends to
become animagi. I'm wary of explanations that are
emotionally satisfying but are incompatible with
the character's pattern of behavior, and Lupin's
supposed passivity is one of them.

Debbie:
Lupin did nothing with his information about Sirius, even though he
sincerely believed Sirius was guilty, because for him to become involved
would risk exposing past actions that would reflect badly on him.  He never
expressed his reservations about the dangerousness of the Marauders'
adventures because he was unwilling to give up the pleasure and
companionship that those adventures represented.  He sat idly by while James
and Sirius bullied Snape (and who knows who else) because he would not risk
his friendship in any way.  Doing what is easy instead of what is right is
weak, and when it consists of *not* doing anything, it is a passive
response.

Lupin is not passive in the sense that he never does anything.  He can take
action when it doesn't risk the loss of his few friends or his mentor.  He's
very willing to take initiative to defuse conflict, for example when he
silences Molly in OOP when she starts in on Sirius.  He's not a passive
teacher, either; he probably thought that to fail at teaching would have
confirmed in everyone's mind that werewolves are unemployable.  Also, unlike
Sirius, he doesn't like to rush into things without thinking them through.
For example, in the Shrieking Shack he insists that Sirius not finish off
Pettigrew until Harry hears a full explanation.  I can imaging him having an
internal debate with himself where he convinces himself

I do think the notion that Lupin led his friends to become animagi is a bit
of an overstatement.  His lycanthropy provided the excuse, but his friends
did everything else.

Pippin:
If Lupin has internalized the view of the WW that werewolves
are inherently evil, and is attempting to counter it by
appearing to be passive and harmless, that is not really a
passive action.

Debbie:
I have trouble seeing where Lupin can be said to have internalized this
view.  He has internalized the WW's view that he is dangerous, but it's not
the same thing as being evil.  To be evil presupposes that you can choose
good instead.  Werewolves cannot choose to be something else.  (However,
they can choose to be evil, as Fenrir Greyback demonstrates.)   Nor would I
put the words passive and harmless in the same phrase.  For a werewolf to be
harmless requires a lot of vigilance.  Forgetting one's potion may be
passive, but it's not harmless.

Pippin:
But if he did indeed internalize
that view, then he wouldn't need to "join the forces of
evil." He would think he had joined them already. And
that is the way Voldemort works. He doesn't bang on your
door and invite you to join the forces of evil. He joins
*you*.

Debbie:
I have been struggling to interpret this paragraph since I first read
it.  The only sense I can make of it is that Voldemort convinces you that
you are inherently evil.  But I don't see any evidence that Voldemort would
make any headway with Lupin on that argument.  Even with the Greybacks of
the world, isn't he just promising to support their agenda?  Voldemort's
relationship with the werewolves smacks of a political alliance and nothing
more.

 Debbie
sure she's left something out that she meant to say


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