Bathroom scene again WAS: Re:Weasley Family Dynamics/To t...

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 165004

Alla:

> I am  sorry and no offense to you as well, but you keep calling it 
> unathorised  dueling. I call it self defense and I do not remember 
> where in canon it  says that student is forbidden to defend 
himself 
> from Unforgivable  curse.
> 
Sherry: 
> -------------------------------------
> Here's the thing, though - no one saw or heard Draco's attempt at 
an  
> Unforgiveable - I don't think even Myrtle witnessed it (and can 
ghosts testify,  
> anyway?).  Based on what was observable to those who came on the 
scene, the  
> conclusion to be drawn would amount to "unauthorized dueling" 
(which technically  
> is what it was - one attacks, the other counters, regardless of 
the spells  
> used).  No, it wasn't a formal duel, with the bows and salutes and 
all  that rot 
> - but it was a duel nonetheless.  Draco attacked, Harry  
countered - with 
> deadly force, regardless of the existence of other, viable  
options.  That's what 
> would have been apparent to anyone coming on the  scene, if they 
were kindly 
> disposed toward Harry.
>  
> Put yourself into the story - you are Professor X (or whatever 
letter you  
> like).  You are peacefully patrolling the corridors, thinking 
about a  nightcap 
> or the quiz you're giving the third years tomorrow, chasing 
snogging  students 
> out of crannies, when suddenly the most godawful racket erupts - 
it's  coming 
> from the second floor girls' loo.  You race over there, and find  
Myrtle 
> shrieking hysterically, the room a shambles, and Harry Potter 
standing  over a 
> bleeding body.  Quickly - judging ONLY by what you see, what  
happened?
>  
> As was pointed out, Draco's Crucio was never completed - so would 
not even  
> register on his wand.  Short of a full-fledged criminal 
investigation, with  
> Veritaserum, Legilimency (wonder why all Aurors aren't trained in 
that - useful  
> skill, I'd think, yeah?) and/or Penseive examination, there's no 
way to prove 
>  Harry's not lying about it to try to justify his own infraction.  
WE know  
> he isn't, but we have the outside omniscience of the Unseen 
Narrator.  THEY  
> don't.  And the Ministry isn't fond of Master Potter just now.
><SNIP>

Alla:

But you are switching gears on me here :) or at least it feels like 
you do.

I did not think we were talking about what McGonagall can conclude 
happened, you know?

Sure, absolutely the fast conclusion that she can make is that Harry 
tried to murder Draco. I mean, I still say that this is not the 
**only** conclusion she can make, knowing the history between them, 
but definitely, it is one of them.

But that is **precisely** what I hope she would not do, meaning I 
hope she would **not** make fast and **wrong** conclusions.

I expect Snape jump to wrong conclusions, not her. I expect Minerva 
to make sure that truth is uncovered and not condemn Harry no matter 
what first impression is, and how convenient it looks.

And the truth is that Draco was firing Unforgivable curse and Harry 
was protecting himself. I am going to even go as far as I almost 
never go, hehe. I refuse to call it my opinion. I think it is a 
fact. Sorry.

I was talking about the truth of what happened, not how it would 
**look** from the first sight.
Oh, and if Snape tried to legilimenc Harry, I am thinking that he 
could have done the same thing with Draco as well.

Sherry: 
> Does Draco deserve to be punished?  Certainly - he was dueling as  
well, and 
> in fact initiated the duel.  Does he deserve to die from  it?  
Sorry, no - and 
> had it NOT been Snape on the scene, he would  have.  He's been 
punished - by 
> Harry.  Now Harry has to take his  medicine.

Alla:

Does he deserve to die from it? If he chose to attack somebody who 
just walked in with the curse that may cause horrible pain and 
insanity?

I do not know if he deserves to die from it, probably not, but I do 
not expect Draco's life to be Harry's first concern when he defends 
his sanity.

Harry has to take his medicine for reading that curse in the first 
place, for sure, for wanting to use it.

To make a long story short, I just refuse to accept that it was 
something **other** than self-defense. If you want to call it self-
defense with wrong weapon, I can at least see where you are coming 
from, even though I would still call it self-defense with unknown 
weapon , hehe.

But if you argue that something else **really** occurred other than 
Harry defending himself, I do not see where in canon you find the 
support for that.

>> eviljunglechicken:
<SNIP>
> If all he was interested in was just defending himself, he could 
have
> used one of the charms, jinxes, hexes mentioned by Sherrie; but he
> doesn't merely want to defend, he wants to attack.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

I have not noticed Harry wanting to attack when Draco used 
Unforgivable, in fact I have noticed him one of those harmless hexes 
at first and quite harmless as second and only as last attempt the 
one marked for enemies. IMO of course.

> Magpie:
> But that's a straw man! Who's trying to prove that Draco is an 
innocent 
> victim? Everyone has agreed that there was an element of self-
defense in 
> Harry's own curse. Nobody's claiming that Draco was just standing 
there and 
> Harry attacked him.  So where does this "innocent victim Draco" 
keep coming 
> up?  Where are Draco's actions against Harry being justified? If 
anything it 
> seems like Harry's the one who's getting extra victim points with 
all the 
> horror scenarios of what we should assume would have happened if 
he hadn't 
> thrown this exact curse that he had no way of imagining could 
possibly be 
> aggressive!).


Alla:

In order to describe Draco as victim, it does not have to be said 
that 
Draco was just staying there while Harry attacked him IMO. It is 
also 
possible to do by changing self defense act into  attempted murder 
OR by saying that what Harry really wanted to do while fallen and 
wet on the floor was to attack Draco.

To me the implications of these arguments is that Draco suffered 
undeservingly from Harry's curse and that to me means that he is a 
victim. And if I saw it as anything other than self-defense, then 
sure Draco would be a victim, I mean he almost bled to death. When 
it is self defense, then attacker can still be a victim, but a 
victim of his own actions and that is what Draco to me in this scene.

To me Harry using unknown curse and him having an absolute right to 
defend himself are two separate issues, I guess.

Luckily, Harry is not a victim here, but he surely gets a 
**potential victim** points from me.

Oh, and horror scenarios happened to Harry, they did not just appear 
put of nowhere. And Draco's father watched one of those scenarios no 
less. Is it such a stretch to think that Harry's subconscious 
remembers Graveyard well?