Bathroom scene again WAS: Re:Weasley Family Dynamics/To t...

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 165069

> Magpie:
> I'm equally impressed with the tenacity that the issue keeps getting
> changed.
> 
> The actual issue is, if you *did* say the wrong thing in a split
> second decision, would you be able to consider that you said the 
> wrong thing? Or would you insist you must have done the right 
thing, 
> or the best thing you could do, because you did it. Or can your 
> actions not be spoken about at all because of what somebody else did
> or what the situation was? Because if Harry didn't make the best
> decision here you'd think it wouldn't be so shocking that anyone 
> would actually say that.

Alla:

Um, I think you are changing it a bit as well, frankly. And I do not 
see anything wrong with it :)

I thought that you were arguing that there is an element of intent in 
Harry using Sectusemptra, if you did, that is for me quite different 
from what you wrote in this paragraph.

Because to realise and acknowledge that you chose the wrong spell is 
quite different from acknowledging that Harry wanted to hurt Draco in 
that scene. You see it ( intent I mean), I do not, I mean, I see him 
wanting to hurt to the extent of defending himself ( how else you can 
stop the attacker, except by hurting him?)

But I do not see intent to hurt for the sake of hurt, if that makes 
sense. 

And I am still trying to figure out how is it wrong to argue self 
defense if it is to answer to people who argue that it was not self 
defense?

It seems to be obvious for the canon characters, but the issue gets 
raised that it was not clear self defense, so it is not **my** issue, 
it is an objection against classifying this scene differently, that 
is all.


Magpie:
 Rather than justifying Harry's decision at 
> every turn and answering any disagreements anyone might have with 
> those justifications with accusations that the person's expecting 
> Harry to be perfect or has never made a mistake themselves--so 
let's 
> get back to talking about how Harry is being unfairly treated 
again. 
> I would guess many people who point out that Harry didn't *have to* 
> use this spell and is somewhat responsible for casting it have 
> probably made plenty of mistakes themselves and might even be 
> thinking about them and identifying with Harry in that situation. 

Alla:

And some people ( or me :)) point out that under circumstances Harry 
was in, he may not have chosen the best spell, but the mistake he 
made was still while acting in self-defense.

I do not see **intent** in that scene at all, except as I said above 
the intent one would have to stop the attacker. You cannot do it by 
hugging him IMO.

Magpie: 
> I think Harry's longtime relationship with Draco, and his being 
drawn
> to the "for enemies" idea of the spell, and the power that he
> unleashed in himself without consciously wanting to are part of the
> story and Harry too. Harry doesn't always have to be the biggest
> victim in the scene.

Alla:

No, Harry does not have to be the biggest victim in every scene and 
he was not, but he IMO absolutely could have been. But neither would 
I agree to Draco being the victim in this scene, except of his own 
actions.


 > Marion
< BIG SNIP>
>> As long as Harry refuses to take responsibility for his own 
mistakes and as long as he keeps blaming others for them <SNIP> "it 
wasn't my decision to follow Draco around and spying on him that got 
us into a fight, it wasn't my throwing a slicing hex at him that got 
him into hospital, it was all Snape's fault for writing the hex in 
the first place!!"),

Alla:

LOLOLOLOL. I find this kind of logic to be truly fascinating. So, 
what I hear you saying that it is all **Harry's fault** for walking 
in the bathroom and he should have expected to find Malfoy there and 
be greeted with unforgivable? Got it.

Marion:
 in shorrt, as long as Harry refuses to aknowledge his mistakes, and -
 God forbid! - even *learn* from them, I can't see him as any kind of 
Hero at all.

Alla:
Well, as long as JKR sees him as hero, I am quite happy ;)