Bathroom scene again LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 165078

> Magpie:
> I am acknowledging Harry that hurting Draco is quite possibly 
> something Harry wanted to do (definitely not something Harry is or 
> should be sure he did not want to do), and that "for enemies" 
> suggests an understanding between Harry and the Prince about what 
> enemies get. Harry wanted to hurt McLaggen too, for annoying him. 
He 
> didn't want to go so far as to split him open and almost kill him, 
> but there's a reason he's not eager to try the spell out on Ron. 
> Harry's problem is that he did not want to hurt Draco that much, 
not 
> that he would never want to hurt Draco. Wanting to hurt Draco is 
not 
> unusual for Harry.

Alla:

Oh, man. I am sorry to keep harping on it, but I still do not get it. 
Could you give me a quote that says that Harry wanted to hurt Draco?

Besides the fact that spell is marked for enemies. I mean, I know I 
said it many times, but isn't the one who throws Crucio at you your 
enemy and should be stopped?

And if you are basing Harry alleged intent to hurt Draco on their 
history, well, maybe the significance of that scene is because it is 
different from their history?

 
> Alla:
> > But I do not see intent to hurt for the sake of hurt, if that 
> makes 
> > sense. 
> 
> Magpie:
> I think he wanted to hurt for the sake of winning the fight, mostly.

Alla:

How else he can defend himself but to win a fight?

 
> Alla: 
> > And I am still trying to figure out how is it wrong to argue self 
> > defense if it is to answer to people who argue that it was not 
> self 
> > defense?
> 
> Magpie:
> It's wrong to argue it was self-defense when the other person isn't 
> arguing that it wasn't self-defense. Harry can be acting in self-
> defense *and also* want to lash out at a person for putting them in 
> that position. 

Alla:

Sure, he can, I just do not think he does.


Magpie:
When I hear someone say "If you try to shoot me I'm 
> not going to care about your well-being. I'm going to blow your 
head 
> off!" That, imo, is not "not caring" about the other person's well-
> being, it's wanting to obliterate that person. And in the heat of 
> the moment (or just in the heat of thinking about such a moment) 
> that's a common, natural desire to have. But there is an intent 
> there that you're feeling. Sometimes you might need a little actual 
> anger and hatred to get you to blow that head off--and it's going 
to 
> *feel* differently than it would feel if the gun just went off in 
> your hand. It might still get you the same verdict of self-defense, 
> but we're dissecting the moment and character here, not deciding 
> whether to sentence Harry or not.

Alla:

The problem I see with this analogy is that the scene already 
happening, I do not remember Harry wanting to hurt Draco beforehand, 
thinking about it. Not about spell, but about hurting Draco with it.

 
>
> Magpie:
> So we all agree that Harry was acting in self-defense. We disagree 
> on how he came upon "the wrong spell."

Alla:

You and me, yes. :)

Magpie:
 You think it was just a case 
> of hearing a word at the wrong time, like hitting the wrong button, 
> and that Harry has nothing to be sorry for. 

Alla:

**no**. I do think that Harry has something to be sorry for, but only 
for wanting to try out the unknown spell.


Magpie:
Other people think the 
> wrong spell had something more to do with understanding that this 
> was the correct place to use the spell, and believing in the Prince 
> to give him what he needed just as the Prince always had, but not 
> realizing how extreme the spell was, and wielding it with too much 
> force, having never used it before--and that this is something the 
> character would feel uncomfortable about later. So we should move 
on 
> from thinking it's got to do with self-defense and just concentrate 
> on "Why did Harry pick that spell?" understanding that question 
does 
> not have to imply that Harry wasn't acting in self-defense.

Alla:

Sorry, still do not get it. I have no problem with anything that you 
said, but won't you say that the intent excludes self-defense? That 
is my main problem. You keep saying that you agree that it was self-
defense, but when you claim that Harry had intent to hurt Draco, I am 
not sure that you do agree to that.

  
> > Alla:
> > 
> > LOLOLOLOL. I find this kind of logic to be truly fascinating. So, 
> > what I hear you saying that it is all **Harry's fault** for 
> walking 
> > in the bathroom and he should have expected to find Malfoy there 
> and 
> > be greeted with unforgivable? Got it.
> 
> Magpie:
> I thought she was mocking that kind of logic. 
> 
> -m
>
Alla:

Oh, I thought she was mocking as well  ( which is her right of 
course) and I am sure Marion would correct whichever one of us is 
wrong, but I thought she was mocking something different from what 
you do.

Here is the  full quote I was responding to:

" Marion:

As long as Harry refuses to take responsibility for his own mistakes 
and as long
as he keeps blaming others for them ("it wasn't stupid and 
discrimitory of me to
suspect Snape of wanting to steal the Philosopher's Stone just 
because I think
he doesn't like me, Snape is still evil and I refuse to listen to him 
or learn
from him because no matter what it takes, I'll proof that he's evil 
for not
liking me", "it wasn't me stupidly rushing to the MoM that got Sirius 
killed, it
wasn't Sirius' own rashness that got him killed, heck, it wasn't even 
Bellatrix
curse that got Sirius killed - it was all SNAPE's fault!!", "it 
wasn't my
decision to follow Draco around and spying on him that got us into a 
fight, it
wasn't my throwing a slicing hex at him that got him into hospital, 
it was all
Snape's fault for writing the hex in the first place!!"), in short, 
as long as
Harry refuses to acknowledge his mistakes, and - God forbid! - even 
*learn* from
them, I can't see him as any kind of Hero at all."

Alla:
I snipped Harry's other mistakes and left the only one I wanted to 
talk about. So, correct me if I am wrong, but I read this paragraph 
that contrary to what Harry thinks, what did got Draco into the fight 
with Harry was Harry spying on him. Do you read it somewhat 
differently?

I thought she was listing multiple justifications that Harry is using 
for himself and that he should acknowledge them, etc and only then he 
will be true hero for Marion.

So, don't you think that "it wasn't my
decision to follow Draco around and spying on him that got us into a 
fight, it
wasn't my throwing a slicing hex at him that got him into hospital, 
it was all
Snape's fault for writing the hex in the first place!!"), was mockery 
of Harry refusing to acknowledge something as true?

And if you think it was, could you tell me how exactly Harry's spying 
on Draco made him throw Unforgivable at him? I am very curious.


> > Alla:
> > 
> > No, Harry does not have to be the biggest victim in every scene 
and 
> > he was not, but he IMO absolutely could have been. But neither 
would 
> > I agree to Draco being the victim in this scene, except of his 
own 
> > actions.
> 
> Pippin:
> Then using an illegal spell is a victimless crime? 
> 
> Here's an analogy: if I am driving a car which I know has not 
passed 
> a required safety inspection, and I lose control of it while 
swerving 
> to avoid a drunken driver, I wouldn't assume I had no responsibility
> for the accident.

Alla:

I am not seeing the exact analogy. Let's change it a little bit and 
then it would suit me better - if you are driving the car  that did 
not pass safety inspection and you are trying to avoid the driver 
that you **know** is trying to kill you, then I would think that your 
responsibility here would be **very** minimal. No maybes, no just 
drunken driver **may** have run into you or not, you know for sure, 
that if you do not avoid him, you are dead.

Sorry, Pippin, I do not think I would hold you very responsible here.

But to me the better analogy would be if somebody gave me a gun as a 
gift ( hate guns, but for the sake of argument) and I am thinking 
about it, but am not asking anybody how this gun operates, I am 
putting this gun closer to me on my desk, then anything else. There 
is an intruder in my house, he is pointing a gun at me, I am pretty 
sure it is the real one.

I am reaching for this gun, pressing the button and this gun blows 
the intruder off completely. 

That is the closest to RL analogy I can get, sort of.