[HPforGrownups] Bathroom scene again LONG

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165086

>> Magpie:
>> I am acknowledging Harry that hurting Draco is quite possibly
>> something Harry wanted to do (definitely not something Harry is or
>> should be sure he did not want to do), and that "for enemies"
>> suggests an understanding between Harry and the Prince about what
>> enemies get. Harry wanted to hurt McLaggen too, for annoying him.
> He
>> didn't want to go so far as to split him open and almost kill him,
>> but there's a reason he's not eager to try the spell out on Ron.
>> Harry's problem is that he did not want to hurt Draco that much,
> not
>> that he would never want to hurt Draco. Wanting to hurt Draco is
> not
>> unusual for Harry.
>
> Alla:
>
> Oh, man. I am sorry to keep harping on it, but I still do not get it.
> Could you give me a quote that says that Harry wanted to hurt Draco?

Magpie:
Regarding this scene? There is no quote. We're all looking at the events and 
the events leading up to it and interpreting what we think is going on 
underneath.

Alla:>
> Besides the fact that spell is marked for enemies. I mean, I know I
> said it many times, but isn't the one who throws Crucio at you your
> enemy and should be stopped?

Magpie:
Presumably he's you're enemy and must be stopped from throwing a Crucio, 
yes. When Harry reads the spell he interprets it as something fun to do to 
someone you don't like, not "spell to stop Crucio." He seems to always see 
it as an offensive rather than defensive spell.

Alla:
> And if you are basing Harry alleged intent to hurt Draco on their
> history, well, maybe the significance of that scene is because it is
> different from their history?

Magpie:
Yes, I'm basing it on their history, and the spell saying "for enemies" and 
maybe also Harry's guilty conscience later.  But I didn't say Harry 
necessarily did mean to hurt Draco--certainly there's no reason to think he 
meant to hurt him as much as he did. I said I think Harry is probably not 
sure about it himself. When you hate someone for years and get pleasure out 
of bad things happening to them, and then you cause them pain and injury, I 
don't think it's uncommon to think about wish fulfillment.  Especially if 
you caused them this pain and suffering in a fight.

Similarly, I wouldn't think it would go amiss if Draco had similar 
unpleasant thoughts about his deserving getting ripped apart that way after 
the way he's behaved towards Harry.

It's a bit like Dumbledore ways about how it's easier to forgive someone for 
being wrong than being right. Only in this case it's more like it's easier 
to apologize for gutting someone accidentally if they're someone you 
generally don't want to see hurt rather than someobdy you do.

>> Alla:
>> > But I do not see intent to hurt for the sake of hurt, if that
>> makes
>> > sense.
>>
>> Magpie:
>> I think he wanted to hurt for the sake of winning the fight, mostly.
>
> Alla:
>
> How else he can defend himself but to win a fight?

Magpie:
In Harry's case he thought the "win the fight" spell was Sectumsempra. So he 
got what he wanted--which turned out to be tearing Draco apart.

> Magpie:
> When I hear someone say "If you try to shoot me I'm
>> not going to care about your well-being. I'm going to blow your
> head
>> off!" That, imo, is not "not caring" about the other person's well-
>> being, it's wanting to obliterate that person. And in the heat of
>> the moment (or just in the heat of thinking about such a moment)
>> that's a common, natural desire to have. But there is an intent
>> there that you're feeling. Sometimes you might need a little actual
>> anger and hatred to get you to blow that head off--and it's going
> to
>> *feel* differently than it would feel if the gun just went off in
>> your hand. It might still get you the same verdict of self-defense,
>> but we're dissecting the moment and character here, not deciding
>> whether to sentence Harry or not.
>
> Alla:
>
> The problem I see with this analogy is that the scene already
> happening, I do not remember Harry wanting to hurt Draco beforehand,
> thinking about it. Not about spell, but about hurting Draco with it.

Magpie:
No, he's not thinking about it beforehand. It's what he decides in the heat 
of the moment. The "blow your head off" analogy applies to the heat of the 
moment too.

>> Magpie:
>> So we all agree that Harry was acting in self-defense. We disagree
>> on how he came upon "the wrong spell."
>
> Alla:
>
> You and me, yes. :)
>
> Magpie:
> You think it was just a case
>> of hearing a word at the wrong time, like hitting the wrong button,
>> and that Harry has nothing to be sorry for.
>
> Alla:
>
> **no**. I do think that Harry has something to be sorry for, but only
> for wanting to try out the unknown spell.

Magpie:
So we disagree on that, but that's not disagreeing that he was acting in 
self defense.

Btw, maybe it would help if you explained just how Harry should feel badly 
for trying out an unknown spell and why trying out an unknown spell is bad.

> Magpie:
> Other people think the
>> wrong spell had something more to do with understanding that this
>> was the correct place to use the spell, and believing in the Prince
>> to give him what he needed just as the Prince always had, but not
>> realizing how extreme the spell was, and wielding it with too much
>> force, having never used it before--and that this is something the
>> character would feel uncomfortable about later. So we should move
> on
>> from thinking it's got to do with self-defense and just concentrate
>> on "Why did Harry pick that spell?" understanding that question
> does
>> not have to imply that Harry wasn't acting in self-defense.
>
> Alla:
>
> Sorry, still do not get it. I have no problem with anything that you
> said, but won't you say that the intent excludes self-defense? That
> is my main problem. You keep saying that you agree that it was self-
> defense, but when you claim that Harry had intent to hurt Draco, I am
> not sure that you do agree to that.

Magpie:
I'm equally confused as to why it's confusing. Harry can have thoughts about 
the person he's defending himself from as he's doing it. Ron attacked Harry 
under the influence of the love potion, yeah? If Ron had tried a Crucio and 
Harry had needed to defend himself from Ron, I think he would have done it 
with a completely different state of mind than he did with Draco, and 
afterwards I think he would have been able to be completely open about the 
kinds of guilt he felt afterwards if he felt guilt even after Ron was well 
again (sorry to hurt you--I was trying to stop you without hurting you). I 
don't think he'd just get little niggles of conscience later.

Marion:
> As long as Harry refuses to take responsibility for his own mistakes
> and as long
> as he keeps blaming others for them ("it wasn't stupid and
> discrimitory of me to
> suspect Snape of wanting to steal the Philosopher's Stone just
> because I think
> he doesn't like me, Snape is still evil and I refuse to listen to him
> or learn
> from him because no matter what it takes, I'll proof that he's evil
> for not
> liking me", "it wasn't me stupidly rushing to the MoM that got Sirius
> killed, it
> wasn't Sirius' own rashness that got him killed, heck, it wasn't even
> Bellatrix
> curse that got Sirius killed - it was all SNAPE's fault!!", "it
> wasn't my
> decision to follow Draco around and spying on him that got us into a
> fight, it
> wasn't my throwing a slicing hex at him that got him into hospital,
> it was all
> Snape's fault for writing the hex in the first place!!"), in short,
> as long as
> Harry refuses to acknowledge his mistakes, and - God forbid! - even
> *learn* from
> them, I can't see him as any kind of Hero at all."
>
> Alla:
> I snipped Harry's other mistakes and left the only one I wanted to
> talk about. So, correct me if I am wrong, but I read this paragraph
> that contrary to what Harry thinks, what did got Draco into the fight
> with Harry was Harry spying on him. Do you read it somewhat
> differently?

Magpie:
I thought she was saying she thinks there's times Harry doesn't take 
responsibilty for his own mistakes, and prefers to blame it Snape. So I 
assumed she was mocking the idea of a person blaming all their actions on 
someone else--not saying that they should have responsibility for others 
actions. Like with Sirius, Harry did make mistakes that led to Sirius' 
death. He's not responsibility for Sirius' death, but neither is Snape. He 
feels better blaming Snape rather than saying here's how I felt, here's what 
I did, here's what he did in response, etc.

-m