Bathroom Scene - A Different Perspective.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165171

Carol earlier:
> 
> > And Eggplant, a "he", I believe
> 
Eggplant:
> I really should clear that up, my first name is Pat.

Carol:
As in Patrick, right, not Patricia?
> 
Carol earlier:
> > is wrong in saying that Harry was punished for using 
Sectumsempra. He was punished for lying to Snape,
> 
Eggplant:
> I believe you deserve total credit for that theory, not JKR. Snape
> suspected Harry had his old potions book but he had no proof.

Carol:

Here's the canon:
 
"One by one, Snape extracted Harry's books and examined them. Finally,
the only book left was the Potions book, which he looked at very
carefully before speaking.

"'This is your copy of *Advanced Potion Making*, is it, Potter?'

"'Yes,' said Harry, still breathing hard.

"'You're quite sure of that, are you, Potter?'

"'Yes,' said Harry, with a touch more defiance.

"'This is the copy of "Advanced Potion Making* that you purchased from
Flourish and Blotts?'

"'Yes,' said Harry firmly.

"'Then why,' asked Snape, 'does it have the name "Roonil Wazlib"
written inside the front cover?'

"Harry's heart missed a beat. "'That's my nickname,' he said.

"'Your nickname,' repeated Snape.

"Yeah . . . that's what my friends call me.'

"'I understand what a nickname is,' said Snape. The cold, black eyes
were boring once more into Harry's; he tried not to look into them.
*Close your mind . . . . Close your mind . . . * but he had never
learned how to do it properly. . . .

"'Do you know what I think, Potter?' said Snape very quietly. 'I think
you are a liar and a cheat and that you deserve detention with me
until the end of term. What do you think, Potter?'

"'I--I don't agree, sir," said Harry, still refusing to look into
Snape's eyes.

"'Well, we shall see how you feel after your detentions,' said Snape.
'Ten o'clock Saturday morning, Potter. My office'" (HBP Am. ed. 528).

Carol again:
I don't know, but somehow it seems pretty clear to me that the
detentions are for being a liar and a cheat, not for using a Dark
spell in self-defense or otherwise.

Carol earlier:
> > when Snape first returned from escorting Draco to the hospital
wing. Instead of saying, "But Professor! It was self-defense! Malfoy
tried to Crucio me!" Harry says, "I didn't mean it to happen. I didn't
know what that spell did!"
> 
Eggplant:
> All that proves is that Harry wouldn't make a good lawyer. I don't
deny that Harry felt guilty for injuring Draco, but I think his guilt
was totally misplaced! 

Carol:
You're entitled to that view, of course, but it's Harry's feelings
that matter for the purposes of this discussion. He feels guilty, he
doesn't plead self-defense. If he doesn't, why should we? And, as I
keep saying, he didn't have to defend himself using an unknown
offensive spell labeled "for enemies." If he's defending himself,
shouldn't he use a known *defensive* spell? That's what DADA spells
are for, Defense against the Dark Arts--including the Cruciatus Curse.
> 
Carol earlier:
> > Snape knows he's been cheating in Potions all year
> 
Eggplant:
> I don't recall Harry doing any cheating in Potions, he just
researched some things that weren't in the standard textbook;
something that was not only allowed in every science or engineering
course I've ever tacken but actively ENCOURAGED. 

Carol:
Researched? It was Teen!Snape who did the research. I would hope that
your science and engineering teachers didn't encourage students to
claim the results of other students' research as their own. As
Hermione says, without the HBP, Harry would never have "got a
reputation for Potion brilliance [he] didn't deserve" (530). It's the
HBP's notes, not Lily's genes, that are responsible for Harry's sudden
"brilliance" in Potions, and Harry is afraid that Snape will tell
Slughorn exactly that: "And what would happen when Snape saw it {the
HBP's Potions book, ironically Snape's own]? Would he tell
Slughorn--Harry's stomach churned--how Harry had been achieving such
good results in Potions all year? Would he confiscate or destroy the
book that had taught Harry so much . . . the book that had become a
guide and friend? Harry could not let that happen . . . He could not"
(525). So he hides the book and lies to Snape.

Harry feels a touch of guilt about the way he's been receiving
unearned marks and fear that Snape will tell Slughorn (which he
evidently doesn't), but he quickly shifts mental gears to make Snape
the culprit. He had to keep the book from being confiscated. And,
ironically, the friend and teacher he's protecting from Snape by lying
and hiding the book is Snape's own younger self embodied in his notes.

Somehow, I don't think Harry is being honest with anyone here--not
Slughorn, not Snape, not even himself.
> 
Carol:
> > I think Harry knew Draco's intent was to temporarily hurt him, not
to drive him insane or kill him. 
> 
Eggplant:
> I have no idea how Harry is supposed to know that, but after 6 years
experience he does know the sort of person Draco is, and I do not
believe that would give Harry encouragement. 

Carol:
I don't mean that Harry had any way of knowing whether Draco can
successfully cast a Crucio. I think he thought that DE!Draco would and
could. (We have no way of knowing whether he was right because the
spell was unfinished.) But if Draco could successfully cast the spell,
it would be the kind of short-term Crucio that Harry had already
experienced at the hands of Voldemort and witnessed Neville suffering
at the hands of Bellatrix, not the unique long-term Crucio inflicted
by four Death Eaters on the two Longbottoms that drove them to
insanity. Harry knows exactly what Crucio is normally about,
excruciating pain that ends when the spell is lifted. That's what he's
fighting against, using an offensive spell rather than a defensive
one. He's fighting torture, not insanity. (See the canon I cited
upthread.)

Carol, who understands why Harry cast that spell and why he, rightly,
IMO, regrets having done so