Was Harry cheathing in Potions in HBP WAS: Re: Bathroom Scene

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165212


> > Magpie:
> > No, she doesn't tell him he's breaking rules. But she obviously 
> > thinks he's getting credit for things he doesn't deserve credit 
> for, 
> > which is true. I'm a little surprised that something that Harry 
> > himself always recognizes as dishonest is getting defended by 
stuff 
> > like "Well, who cares about classes being fair?" or "Why's it 
> > important to learn the subject in school?" It's not fair that 
Harry 
> > had a mean teacher for 5 years that didn't like him so he's 
getting 
> > payback through getting credit for being a Potions whiz when he 
> > isn't in return? Since when do those things go together? (And if 
> > that is what he is doing, I expect Snape's debt is paid in full 
now 
> > and nobody can consider him unfair anymore.)   
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> YAY. Trip to the bathroom seems to be over, so I figured I will 
> finally change the subject :)
> 
> Hmmm, was Harry cheating or not? IMO I agree with Neri that 
academic 
> life in Hogwarts does not strike me as fair **at all**.
> 
> But since I always say that I consider Snape to be a child abuser 
by 
> our standards and do think that JKR really does have our standards 
in 
> mind for Potterverse as strive for, I totally say that Harry 
**was** 
> cheating, no question about it.
> 
> I think though Magpie, that who cares about that stuff is not 
exactly 
> a defense, more like an excuse, sort of.

Magpie:
Yes, I think it depends on what one is arguing for, exactly. I mean, 
on one level, JKR has not come up with a very good example 
of "cheating." Harry's following a recipe for Potions, Hermione's 
following a recipe for Potions--what's the difference? 

Yet JKR does create a situation where it clearly is dishonest by 
having Harry specifically take credit for improvements as if he came 
up with them by understanding the underlying laws, which it is 
stressed he doesn't.

Then there's the question of how *bad* it is, which is where 
the "who cares" stuff comes in. Now, I don't think it's that bad--if 
I had the HBP's book I can't say I wouldn't necessarily have done 
the same thing. Where I would argue against "who cares" is not to 
say that Harry has done a horrible, horrible thing, but that Harry 
has done *nothing* because of totally random reasons--he's an 
orphan, Snape was a jerk, he wouldn't have used the book if it was 
Snape's. Or more disturbingly, writing out the idea entirely from 
different angles--Harry's not really at an advantage, it's about 
Snape's instructions being inferior, Harry's experimenting like s 
scientist. That's just not what's going on. Harry himself owns the 
fact that he's being dishonest, and we can too.

Alla:
> 
> Because the way I think about it, I precisely do not care about it 
> not because Harry was not cheating, but because of the way Snape 
> treated him.
> 
> In RL, sure I would have cared about it, but I do think that Harry 
> was **way** overdue some compensation and no, I do not think that 
> makes Snape debt paid, far from it ;) ( just in literature, hehe)

Magpie:
Really, the "real" reason this is bad for Harry has nothing to do 
with his karma. The problem isn't that Snape stews over the idea of 
Harry being seen as a Potions genius, though we're free to find that 
funny and as payback for Snape's own attempts to keep Harry down.

The real issue--and this is going to sound totally Hermione and 
goody-two shoes, but every kid knows this is What's Wrong With 
Cheating by the time they're five--is that Harry is not taking the 
class honestly. Like Hermione says the first time she refuses to 
write his essay for him "How will you learn?" That's the point of 
being graded fairly in Potions. Harry's also causing trouble for 
himself with other kids in the class--the exact kind of trouble he 
might once have not wanted to be a part of himself.

Neri:
It is canon that Hermione got an O in the potions OWL. However, it is
*not* canon that Draco or anything else in the class got an O. It is
only one possible interpretation of canon, one that is slightly
problematic (for example, for somebody whose supposed to be an O
student Draco is *never* shown, in six books, to do something
particularly well in potions class). An equally likely interpretation
is that most of the other students in Slughorn's class also got in
because the requirements were lowered to E. But in any case we can't
use the OWL marks for comparison because the students didn't take
independent tests after Slughorn's year and we don't know what marks
they would have got if they did. So I'm only basing my estimation on
what we actually see from the students in the class.

Magpie:
It's the most straightforward interpretation. Harry and Ron need 
books because they are the "E" students. The "O" students had books 
because they knew they could take the class with Snape. Draco is 
shown to do fine in Potions throughout canon. Snape compliments his 
stewing the first day, and he makes fun of people who got a D (as 
Harry did) on the practice OWLS in fifth year. There's nothing 
surprising about Draco, Snape's favorite student, who has never been 
shown to have any trouble in Potions, getting an "O." When he's 
lumped in with Hermione and all the others while Ron and Harry are 
singled out with their E's, I think it takes more twisting to argue 
him out of a simple O than to imagine him having one. i don't think 
we need special proof that he's good enough to get an O.

Neri:
To be exact, Draco appears as mediocre as he appeared in Snape's 
class and Hermione is as brilliant as she was in Snape's class. The 
only difference we see is in Harry, which is what I was saying: 
Harry was suddenly working with improved instructions, not the rest 
of the class suddenly working on bad instructions.

Magpie:
As I said above, Draco is not shown to be "mediocre" in Snape's 
class--it's not like we get a rundown of every Potion in every 
class. This particular class isn't for the mediocre--and he seems to 
do fine in it as well. On par with the other students not Harry. 

> Magpie:
> When do you remember Hermione so frazzled in Snape's class?

Neri:
This was exactly my point. Harry is doing better because he has
Snape's notes. If Snape was always including his special tips in his
instructions to his class then Harry's situation, in absolute terms,
hadn't changed at all from Snape's to Slughorn's class.

Magpie:
Right. What has changed is first that other students no longer have 
access to Snape's instructions, and that Harry is paying attention 
to the instructions more now. In the past when Harry has gotten a 
Potion wrong Snape has pointed out that he did not follow 
instructions on the board. 


> Magpie:
> I thought the exact opposite was obvious. Suddenly Hermione is
> struggling and Harry is breezing through, even though Hermione 
still
> understands the material better than Harry does.

Neri:
Hermione isn't "struggling". She's doing very well just like she
always has.

Magpie:
Not just as she always has. Now she struggles to get results that 
show her relatively better grasp of the subject than her neighbor. 
She's never had trouble being the best in brewing a Potion from 
instructions, and now she is. She's better than Harry at Potions, 
but now can't show it.

> Magpie:
> No, she doesn't tell him he's breaking rules. But she obviously
> thinks he's getting credit for things he doesn't deserve credit 
for,
> which is true. I'm a little surprised that something that Harry
> himself always recognizes as dishonest is getting defended by stuff
> like "Well, who cares about classes being fair?"

Neri:
Well, the way you present it, it is more of Slughorn's fault, really.
He's teaching using bad instructions, and Harry was just lucky to put
his hands on the usual instructions. It's like you suddenly get a
really lousy physics teacher in high school, so nobody actually 
learns much, except you do because you're lucky to have a physicist 
for a father and he explains everything to you, so you get to be the 
first in your class. Unfair? Yes, but that's life.

Magpie:
It's Slughorn's fault what? That the class gets bad instructions? 
Yes, it is. That he favors Harry and sees what he wants to see? yes. 
That Harry lies about knowing more about Potions than he does? No. 
Harry doesn't have a physicist father explaining things to him--the 
Prince isn't *explaining* things to Harry, which is why Harry isn't 
actually any better at Potions than he was before. He's just getting 
better results making his Potions than the rest of the class with 
his corrected instructions. 

And as I said to Alla, there's nothing wrong with using good 
instructions. If Harry wants to keep those instructions to himself 
to make sure he's always best in the class that's his choice. And 
yes, life is unfair. But the issue in the thread isn't, for me, that 
Harry can't ever have an unfair advantage. He's had advantages 
before. 

The point is that Harry is taking credit for things he is not--being 
naturally good at Potions, having a great grasp of Potions theory, 
getting better marks because he's pulling stuff out of his own head. 
The rest of the class will live, and Harry hasn't really earned 
himself a skill. It's fine--but call it what it is. It's not Harry 
getting his dad to help him with his homework and explain things to 
him, or Harry showing that he really is better than the other 
students at Potions or Harry really being what he's presenting 
himself as to Slughorn. Harry is under no illusions about that.  
Snape knows Harry isn't the naturally brilliant student Slughorn 
says he is and so does Harry.

-m