Freud and JKR / Id vs. Superego (was:Re: Seeing gray in a black and white book)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 165226

> >>Lilygale:
> > My (neo-Freudian) interpretation is that Harry really and truly   
> > has an instinctive, id-driven desire to hurt Bellatrix in        
> > retaliation for killing Sirius.  At the same time (and this is   
> > what determines Harry's moral stance), his ego and superego      
> > restrain his behavior by tempering his emotions.  That is,       
> > Harry's sense of self and sense of morality will not allow his id 
> > to act with full, infantile emotional force. They hold him back   
> > to the extent that, when he casts Crucio to satisfy his id, he   
> > also cannot really cause harm because his ego/superego will not   
> > allow that.  Harry wants to hurt, but he could not live with the 
> > consequences of that evil.  Harry's actions reflect his surface   
> > conscious wishes/desires, but he is also controlled by layers
> > underneath, without conscious awareness. 

> >>Carol:
> Well, that's one way to look at it, but I'm not sure that JKR had
> neo-Freudian psychology in mind. I'll grant you that not all        
> intention is conscious (including the intention of the author), but 
> I'm not sure that I find labeling the various elements of the mind 
> all that productive.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
IIRC, there's a picture out there of JKR's bookshelf, with a book on 
or by Freud in it.  And what with Imperius and Occlumency and 
Leglimency, I think JKR may have had *some* sort of 
compartmentalizing of the human psyche in mind.  Gosh, the sorting 
out of the Hogwarts students as per Water, Fire, Earth or Air also 
speaks, IMO, to a partitioning out of emotional elements.  Which, for 
good or ill, Freud spoke a bit about. (There's also a werewolf in the 
books, which I believe is a myth with fairly strong Freudian 
overtones to it.  Talk about id versus superego! <g>)

> >>Bruce Alan Wilson:
> According to what I have read in the literature of psychology and   
> psychiatry, Freud's theories have been pretty well exploded. Hence, 
> I distrust a Freudian or neo-Freudian analysis of anything.  

Betsy Hp:
Yes, but Freud's theories and ideas are still majorly impacting the 
Western world today.  His worth as an actual psychiatrist might be in 
question (or out and out dismissed), but he's still shaped the modern 
world enough to seep into art and literature. And I don't think that 
influence can be so easily dismissed.

> >>Carol:
> I think it's simply that, much as he wants to punish Bellatrix in   
> that moment, he can't hold onto the desire to inflict pain as she   
> does... <snip> 
> I don't think conscience (superego) has anything to do with it, or 
> he'd have figured out by now exactly why he shouldn't use it.

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, but Harry *still* is pretty bad about thinking things through.  
Hence his totally over the top hatred of Snape in the opening of 
HBP.  It's an emotion that feels good, so Harry goes with it.  
There's a lot about Harry that's pure instinct.  Which is sometimes a 
good thing and a strength.  But I think Harry's got to engage his 
rational, thinking side too.  Because sometimes Harry's instinct is 
wrong.

(To tie into another thread: Harry's instinct to continue passing the 
Prince's potion work off as his own ends up not helping him in the 
end.  Slughorn doesn't share his information because Harry is so good 
at Potions.  Instead, it's when Harry makes a conscious decision to 
play to Slughorn's emotions as Lily's son and "the Chosen One", that 
he gets results.)

> >>Lilygale:
> The Prince has seduced Harry into thinking that offensive spells    
> are OK.  

> >>Carol:
> But you're crediting an active will to the HBP's notes, written for
> his own eyes twenty years before.
> <snip>
> If Harry is being seduced, it's not by the book but by his own     
> desire to learn and use new hexes and, possibly, to show up        
> Hermione in a class where she's always done better than he has, or, 
> alternatively, to lap up Slughorn's praise and attention, which he 
> can't bring himself to admit he doesn't deserve.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I think you're taking Lilygale to literally here. (Though of course I 
can't speak for her. <g>)  I took her meaning to be more that the 
emotion the Prince was putting into his book was a type of emotion 
that Harry connected to.  Which is why Harry felt such a *personal* 
connection to the book and was so very sure it was written by a boy.  
It was more than an instructional tool.  Harry *felt* something.

Harry's defense of the book (or more properly the Prince) was based 
on much more than a love of Slughorn's praise or the coolness of the 
hexes.  Otherwise, Ron would have felt as "connected" to the Prince 
as Harry did.  The Prince became a friend of Harry's.  And I think 
it's based a lot on the fact that emotionally Harry and the Prince 
are in very similar states.  (If you don't like calling it id, we 
could call it George? <g>)

> >>Lilygale:
> By casting Sectumsempra instead of another known spell, Harry is
> trusting his "friends" judgment.  But why?  Because his id really
> really wants to hurt Draco (Harry's felt that urge for years) – and 
> he justifies this urge by rationalizing that he can trust his       
> friend. 
> <snip>
> In the heat of the moment, Harry was governed by his darker side   
> (id) rather than his ego.  It's an understandable error given the   
> heat of the moment, but I agree with others who hope that Harry    
> learns to understand his own impulses and desires more thoroughly.
 
> >>Carol:
> I don't know that id or even trusting his friend has anything to do
> with it.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
It was the animal need to inflict pain on someone who's hurting you 
versus the cool and calm judgment needed to win a fight.  Where ever 
people come down on this issue (and I really don't want to drag 
everyone back into the bathroom <g>) I think everyone agrees that it 
was risky for Harry to use an unknown and untested spell.  He was 
lucky it was something that actually stopped Draco.  (Would have 
sucked if it'd just squirted stink puss at Draco, for example.)

The Prince, IMO, is all about animal need (or the id) at the point he 
invented that spell.  This is a boy on his way to becoming a Death 
Eater, after all.  And it's not that I think Harry is in any danger 
of joining Voldemort (I can't think of any way he'd do such a thing), 
but I *do* think Harry is in danger of allowing his anger and pain to 
control his decision making.  And, unfortunately, the Prince 
sometimes backed up or encouraged Harry's animal (or id) side.

Betsy Hp