Was Harry cheating at Potions (was:Re: Bathroom Scene - A Different Perspective.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165272

Mike wrote:
<snip>
> Ron got a used book from the same cupboard, was he cheating? What if
Ron's had additional notes that proved to be worse than the text's
instructions, would Ron be cheating if he used those notes? Or is it
only if your book has notes that improve your performance are you
considered a cheater? IOW, just because Harry's used book was more
useful than Ron's does not make Harry a cheater. And it is clearly
legal for Harry or anybody to have a used book.

Carol responds:
Obviously, Ron wasn't cheating for using a used textbook with no notes
in it. And Harry isn't cheating for using the notes, per se. He's
cheating by taking credit for knowledge that isn't his. The person
he's really hurting is himself since he's obviously not learning the
material. It's obvious from the antidote assignment, when he resorts
to producing a Bezoar (not cheating? He didn't do the work!) and his
diminished results after he hides the HBP's book that he not only
isn't a Potions genius like Teen!Severus, he's not even an excellent
student like Hermione, who follows directions and understands the
theory, even if she can't come up with Potions improvements on her
own. Too bad the NEWT Potions class doesn't have closed-book tests.
Harry would have failed dismally and revealed to Slughorn that he
wasn't *earning* those high marks. He was relying on someone else's
thinking and research and implicitly claiming credit for them. That
may not be cheating, but it isn't honest, either. Scientists always
cite the sources they've consulted in conducting their own
experiments, and ethical students do the same thing.

Mike:
> [Quick aside here; does anybody besides me think that Snape
continued to mark up that book well after his school days? When Harry
makes the comment that he "Shouldn't have left his old book in the
bottom of that cupboard", I immediately thought, 'that's cause he
continued to use it'. I speculate that Snape made most of his potions
improvements post school days. Just a feeling ;-)]

Carol:
Interesting thought, but I don't think so. Most of those hexes are the
kind of thing that Hogwarts students, the boys, anyway, throw at each
other. And if he were still noting his potions improvements in that
book, he would certainly keep it with him in his office. (I think the
potions improvements are all in his head now. He casts the directions
on the board from memory and knows exactly what will happen at each
step in the process. He's continued to work on the potions, all right,
but not all of his improvements are noted in that book. I think he
simply left it there as a schoolboy, and it's been lying there,
forgotten and unconsulted, for twenty years. But, of course, we're
both just guessing.)
>
Mike:
> Is Harry disengenuous by not coming clean to Slughorn? <snip>

Carol:
Obviously, yes, or you wouldn't have to ask the question. He's
concealing the fact that he's *not* a Potions genius from Slughorn,
and he's desperate to keep Snape from finding the book and proving to
Slughorn that it's the HBP, not Harry, who understands potions and
potions theory. So, yes, it's disingenuous. He's concealing
information that he doesn't want the teacher to find out. Motivation
for telling the truth to Slughorn? How about simple honesty? He came
up with the Bezoar "solution" because he didn't have a clue what he
was doing. What if the truth comes out after he's been concealing it
all year? Better to come clean from the beginning. And it really is
unfair to Hermione, who works hard and knows what she's doing, for
Harry, whose knowledge of Potions theory is as phony as Lockhart's
defeat of the Wagga Wagga Werewolf, to earn higher marks for his
feigned brilliance than she earns for her knowledge and effort. No
wonder she's angry and wants nothing to do with the HBP's book.

Mike:
> I suppose one could say that the honorable thing would be for Harry
to turn in the HBP's copy and proceed with his new book from Flourish
and Blotts. <snip>

Carol:
Yes. Not only would doing so be fair to Hermione (and ease Harry's
insufficiently guilty conscience) it would benefit the entire class.
As someone pointed out, Slughorn is using an antiquated book from the
days when Tom Riddle was a student. Possibly, he's never bothered to
change textbooks in all his years of teaching or, possibly, no better
book is available (but if so, he doesn't bother to substitute his own
improved directions for the text). The potions improvements in the
HBP's book would benefit all of Slughorn's students, especially the
hard-working ones like Hermione who really care about Potions (and
chances are, no one would be taking NEWT Potions if they didn't really
care about the subject, especially since they must have thought when
they bought their books that the class would be taught by Snape). I
think it's been clearly established that Snape must have been using
those improved potions directions in his own classes. If Slughorn had
access to the HBP's notes, perhaps taking the trouble to test them out
himself outside class, all of the students would benefit. (Hermione
wouldn't think it was cheating if the whole class had access to the
improved potions; she only thinks it's cheating when Harry uses
information from an unknown source and claims it as his. And, IMO,
she's right.) And BTW, it's quite possible that Slughorn would
recognize that cramped handwriting and know whose notes they were, in
which case, the right person would be credited with being a Potions
genius.

Mike:
BTW, when did we allow Snape's opinion to become our moral compass?

Carol:
We're not using Snape as our moral compass. Snape believes in
following and enforcing the rules, and some of us happen to agree with
him in this instance--but not *because* Snape thinks Harry's cheating.
Perhaps some posters are doing the opposite, thinking that Harry must
not be cheating because Snape thinks he is. We can argue that Snape is
right or wrong, but let's not base our judgments on whether or not
Snape qualifies as a moral compass.

Mike:
Has anyone else accused Harry of being a cheat besides Snape? <snip>

Carol:
Only two people other than Snape (who suspects that Harry is using his
book and claiming his research as his own, and confirms that suspicion
through Legilimency) know that Harry is using the HBP's book, and Ron,
whose standards when it comes to copying homework and even cheating on
it (faking predictions in Divination, for example) are not high, would
use the book if he could read the handwriting. Hermione, in contrast,
doesn't use the word "cheating," but she obviously disapproves of what
Harry is doing. I've already quoted her as saying he's received credit
for Potions brilliance that he doesn't deserve, and her refusal to use
the Prince's notes because she wants to follow the textbook directions
and do her own work speaks for itself.
>
Mike:
> Speaking of Hermione <eg>, I didn't notice her having a problem with
helping out the boys herself. In fact, doesn't she help both Harry
and Neville in *Potions*? Doesn't she as much as finish both Ron's
and Harry's homework many times throughout the series? Why is it that
only now, when Harry has someone (or something) else to help him that
she gets indignant about Harry getting help?

Carol:

Now here I agree with you. All this time, she's been helping them with
their homework, sometimes almost doing it for them. She disapproves of
their inventing disasters in Divination, but she writes conclusions
for their essays. She tells them that they need to learn the subjects
for themselves, and yet she practically does their studying for them
(except, of course, for casting spells, which they have to learn for
themselves). Maybe Hermione *is* a bit jealous of Harry in Potions
class, but she has reason to be. She knows what she's doing and he
doesn't. It's like Hermione somehow beating out Harry as Seeker
because she's put some sort of charm on her broom. He doesn't know
what he's doing; she does; yet he's getting all the praise and credit.
It isn't fair, and the fact that life isn't fair or that Snape isn't
fair doesn't justify what Harry is doing. I don't much like HBP
Hermione, espceially that Oppugno she cast when she was angry with
Ron, but in this instance, she's right, and her jealousy of Harry
should not be used to detract from the rightness of her position, any
more than Snape's nasty personality or previous unfairness should be
used to detract from the rightness of his.

And BTW, Harry does lie to Snape, both regarding where he found
Sectumsempra (in a library book!), regarding his Potions book (he's
hidden the real one), and even regarding his nickname being Roonil
Wazlib. Maybe that doesn't justify two months' worth of Saturday
detentions, but it certainly qualifies as lying to a teacher.

Carol, who is not arguing that Harry is a horrible person, only that
he and his friends would be not only more intellectually honest but
better off academically if they did their own work