Harry's "friend," the HBP (Was: Freud and JKR / Id vs. Superego )

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165294

Carol earlier:
> > From my point of view, Sectumsempra is about a boy on his way to
becoming a Death Eater. "For Enemies" more than suggests that he
has revenge on his mind. But Muffliato is just a charm to allow a kid
to talk with his friends without being overheard.
> > <snip>
>
Betsy Hp:
> Exactly. I think the Prince started out as basically a good kid.
He had a slightly dark sense of humor (like Harry), but wasn't
seething with anger. But that changed, and I think Harry, going
through similar emotions (it's interesting to track his evolving view
of Snape through the books), easily follows the Prince's slide. So
when Harry is in a place where he *wants* to strike out in anger at
> someone, the Prince hands him the perfect weapon.

Carol:
Well, yes and no. I don't see any "slide." The hexes and spells other
than Sectumsempra are no worse than the hexes that the students
routinely throw at each other. The potions hints are completely
innocuous and indicative of hard work and creative experimentation.
And suddenly we have something very different, a Dark spell labeled
"for enemies." It seems like a sudden change in focus to me, not a
gradual slide toward the Dark side. Something, perhaps the Prank,
caused the revenge that may have been simmering beneath the surface to
take precedence over research and the HBP's slightly darkish sense of
humor (as reflected in the Bezoar crack, for example). (And BTW, I
think we can safely take for granted that he understood Golpalott's
Law and would have had no trouble with the antidotes assignment. he
was just being a smart a**.)

Betsy Hp:
> Hmmm... Well, first off I utterly refuse to see Snape as someone
hungry for recognition (of the public kind anyway). The Order of
Merlin thing is Lupin's bugaboo, and Lupin lies too easily for me to
take *only* his word (especially his angry word) on something. I
think Snape likes to be *right*, but that's a very seperate thing
from recognition.

Carol:
Yes, I agree that the Order of Merlin wasn't as important to Snape as
Lupin made it sound, but I still think he wouldn't have minded having
it, and my feeling (only a feeling) is that he would have liked more
recognition from Dumbledore as a kid. I always feel that he's a kind
of stepbrother to the Marauders, and they, especially James, receive
the recognition and appreciation that he'd like to receive (becoming
Head Boy, for example, after the Prank and all those detentions
without ever having been a Prefect). Notice how he looks forward to
telling Dumbledore that he was right about the werewolf aiding and
abetting the murderer in PoA. He wants Dumbledore to listen to him and
acknowledge that he's right. He takes a lot of risks doing dangerous
assignments with no recognition from anybody, and that's fine with
him. But Dumbledore is different. He wants Dumbledore's approval and
trust, and he believes (rightly, IMO) that he deserves it. More, I
might add, than the secretive and sometimes outright dishonest Lupin,
But, yes, absolutely, Snape likes to be right. No argument there. He
just wants his "rightness" to be acknowledged by Dumbledore.
>
Betsy HP:
> But second, I don't like putting Snape's choice to become a Death
Eater onto other people's shoulders so much. I don't see this as poor
innocent lamb Snape getting sucked in by the Death Eater wolves (like
Pinocchio going off to "bad boy" land or whatever it was). I think
Snape does have some responsibility for choosing to believe whatever
story was fed him. And for letting his anger and resentment play such
a role in his choosing.
>
Carol:
Yes, of course. I didn't mean to imply that young Severus was an
innocent lamb led astray. Absolutely, he was seething with rage at
this time, and his interest in DADA may have been turning more toward
the Dark Arts themselves. But he was also brilliant and powerful and
multi-talented and just possibly ambitious, eager, probably, for
recognition and acceptance. He had once been part of a gang of older
Slytherins, almost certainly including Lucius Malfoy even though
Sirius Black doesn't mention him, and just possibly he felt that his
Slytherin friends, most of whom had become Death Eaters, would grant
him the acceptance that he hadn't received from his schoolmates. And,
given his age and his state of mind, he might have readily believed
that Voldemort would grant him the recognition that Dumbledore, in his
view, had not. None of which is to say that he didn't *choose* to join
the Death Eaters or that he isn't responsible for that choice. Of
course, he is. And that's important for the redemption process. He has
to acknowledge his own responsibility before he can feel remorse, and
I believe that he's done exactly that.

Carol earlier:
> > As for Harry, I agree that he's in danger of letting the desire
for revenge control him. <snip> But that's not what Harry identifies
with in the HBP's Potions book as far as I can tell. He's interested
in the Prince's creativity and, sad to say, in getting credit for the
Prince's work.
>
Betsy Hp:
> See, I really think Harry's connection to the Prince went much
deeper than that. Harry reads through the book whenever he has the
spare time; he reads the book at night; he defends the book (or the
Prince) to his friends; he protects the book (or the Prince) from his
enemies. I really got the sense that this wasn't just a neat
instruction book Harry stumbled across, this was someone who Harry was
able to personally relate to. Which is why he was so painfully eager
for the Prince to actually be his father.

Carol:
And yet there's nothing in the book, so far as we know, except Potions
hints and notes for spells. I like the fact that he considered the
Prince his friend and teacher, and the irony that the friend and
teacher was Snape, but what is the basis for that connection? It seems
to exist solely in Harry's mind because the Prince has "helped" him in
Potions class when he would otherwise have been utterly at a loss what
to do (the antidotes fiasco). Certainly, he owes Snape a debt of
gratitude as both the HBP and the Potions master for teaching him
about Bezoars. But what does he actually learn about the Prince, other
than that he was brilliant and creative? Why does he empathize with
him, when he himself is not a creative genius (though he easily master
the spells)? Whatever it is, I don't think it's that they're both
headed down a dark road. Sectumsempra is the only Dark, or even
darkish, spell in the book.
>
> > >>Carol:
> > (He can tell that the Prince is a boy, probably because more boys
than girls are interested in hexes...
>
> Betsy Hp:
> I seriously doubt Harry's understanding that the Prince was a boy
was based on such reasoning. He does know Ginny after all. <g>

Carol:
I forgot about Ginny. But she's not typical. (Think Lavender, Parvati,
and Pansy, none of whom go around throwing hexes at people they
dislike. Nor do Hermione and Luna. Ginny probably does so only because
of overexposure to brothers, and the Twins in particular. Or because
she's an obnoxious little--but I didn't say that.) And if that's not
the reason Harry thought (knew) the HBP was a boy, what do you think
it could have been? The Bezoar crack is the only hint of boyish humor
in the book. And, of course, there's the fact that the HBP called
himself the Half-Blood *Prince.*
>
Carol earlier:
> > ...and because of the tone of the Bezoar remark, but I'm not sure
that the Prince provides any personal information for Harry to
identify with except on this general level. Harry can't even tell
that the Prince is a Slytherin.)
>
> Betsy Hp:
> I strongly disagree. There was enough there for Harry to personally
identify with the Prince. The book was not just an instruction manual.
(And of course Harry doesn't identify the Prince as Slytherin! Harry's
got too much invested in denying his own Slytherin traits. <g>)

Carol:
Canon, please? We don't have *anything* except the Bezoar line,
potions hints, and spells being worked out in the margins, and the
"notation "for enemies." And if he knew or guessed that the HBP was a
slytherin, he'd have dropped him like a hot potato.
>
> >Carol, who wonders if the HBP's teachers realized what a genius he
was and guesses that Slughorn did but McGonagall didn't
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Slughorn, definitely. Snape didn't get into the Slug Club based on
breeding or charm. <g>

Carol:
Ah, but there are people in this group who don't think that his
presence at Slughorn's Christmas party and Slughorn's genial attitude
toward him aren't sufficient evidence that he was in the Slug Club.
I'm glad that you're not one of them. At least we agree on one point!

Betsy Hp:

I'd bet that McGonagall recognized his talents though. It wouldn't
surprise me if most of the staff didn't see Snape as someone to watch.

Carol:
I don't know. I do see her in books one through four, at least,
treating him as a respected colleague and equal, even following his
lead in CoS regarding Lockhart, though some of the cordiality may have
disappeared after she discovered that he'd been a Death Eater. (I
think his politeness when she returnes from St. Mungo's is real, but
their relations seems a bit formal. I could be mistaken, though.) But
I'm talking about when he was at Hogwarts. He wasn't in her House and
his specialties were different from hers. I'm sure he was talented in
Transfiguration and everything else involving a wand, rather like
Hermione, but we don't hear about it.

Betsy Hp:
And really, as far as that goes Snape proved them all right. Potions
Master *and* Head of House at his age? Pretty well done, I think. <g>

Carol:
Oh, absolutely. But that was Dumbledore's doing. I'm not questioning
his talents or his brilliance for a moment. I'm just wondering whether
his teachers recognized and encouraged his potential. He looked like a
plant kept in the dark, remember. Someone should have given him
sunshine and water.

Carol, hoping that the middle portion of this post makes any sense at
all since she was trying to listen, talk, think, and type at the same time