On lying and cheating

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 165380

---  "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:
> > > <snip>
> > > You're still missing the main point, which is 
> > > that *Harry is receiving credit for the HBP's 
> > > research and creativity.* <snip>
> > 
> > Mike:
> > I catch your point Carol <bg>. But I think many 
> > people are still debating whether Harry was cheating
> > or not ..... 
> 
> >  Instead, your main point, which I do agree with, is 
> > that Harry's taken credit for the "Prince's" research
> > smacks of plageristic oppurtunism. ...
> 
> Carol:
> I suppose our quibble is over the term cheating. As a
> former teacher who had to deal with,..., students 
> copying essays off the Internet which they claimed 
> as their own, I do consider taking credit for other
> people's ideas cheating, ... How "plagiaristic 
> opportunism" could be anything other than cheating is
> beyond my comprehension. ...

bboyminn:

This is one of those rare times when Carol and I 
disagree, though I have been persuaded to her side but
only to a very small degree. 

First and foremost, Harry isn't taking credit any
more than any other students are. They are ALL using
someone else's innovation, someone else's research,
someone else's genius, because every student in class
is using someone else's recipe or formula, and that is
/exactly/ what they are suppose to be doing. It's just
that Harry is getting his information from a different
'someone else'. 

Now earlier in this discussion someone mentioned a 
point that was a 'head slapper' 'now I get it' moment
for me. They mentioned the potion where Slughorn
admires Harry for having had the insight to put a sprig
of Peppermint into his potion. Harry readily accepts 
that credit with no indication he got the idea from 
someone else.

While I don't think using the book in general was 
cheating for reason I have already given. I can see 
how this one event would be considered unethical by 
many people. However, unethical as the politically
correct amoung us might see it, I see it as a very 
'kid' thing to do. In that sense, it very much stays
in character for Harry. I think nearly every kid 
in real life would have done the same thing. They
would have gladly accepted the 'sin of ommission' as
being OK. Harry got the correct result, and that is 
the truest test of APPLYING potions. 

Keep in mind that is what is being tested here, not
the innovation of the recipe, but the ability to 
apply a known recipe. As I said, the other kids have
a mediocre 'chocolate cake' recipe and they tend to
produce /less than/ mediocre 'chocolate cake'. Harry
has a different, far more fussy and complicated 
recipe, and he applies it very well. And the most
important part is the 'applies it very well' part.
That indicates that Harry does indeed have some 
aptitude for potions. I will touch on this more later.

> Mike: 
> > And I think this stems from all the non-potion spells
> > that Harry wants to explore. Harry does not want to 
> > lose that oppurtunity and,  on a fundamental level, I
> > don't believe it is Harry's place to point out to 
> > Slughorn that he (Sluggy) assigned an inferior book 
> > for his  NEWT students. ...but, that does not 
> > exonerate Harry from claiming credit by proxy of all
> > the Prince's work.
> > 
> > It's this two pronged part of the problem that lies 
> > at the base of this debate. ... It's a closer call 
> > for those of us that don't think using the book is 
> > cheating. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> Oho! It's not *just* reluctance to give up the friend 
> who's "helping" him attain an unearned reputation for 
> brilliance in Potions. It's a reluctance to give up the
> source of those clever hexes and charms.
> That makes it all right, then.
> 
> Carol, 

bboyminn: 

If what people are referring to is, as illustrated by,
Harry not giving credit for the 'sprig of peppermint',
then, in that limited context, I agree. I would have 
felt Harry deflected the situation better if he had 
said something like 'oh, just something I read about
somewhere'. Still slightly unethical, but it is a lie
told with the truth; which I've always felt was the
best kind of lie. Not ethically best; just the safest
most effective. 

Still though, it seems the perfect 'kid' thing to do,
and I would have expected no more from any other kid.
I think many people forget just how separated kids are
from the adult world. In a sense, kids live in their
own parallel universe where the 'rules of the playground'
are very different from the rules adults live by. 

In a broad and general sense, adults are the enemy. Any 
encounter of any kind with an adult has a high potential
for the kid ending up in trouble, at least from the kids
point of view. So, kids avoid adults. We see Harry and
the gang following this same pattern thoughout the books.
Harry doesn't go to McGonagall because McGonagall is the
bringer of shouting, trouble, and punishment.

So from the 'holier than thou' (for lack of a better way
of expressing it) view of us clear-thinking adults, what
Harry does is wrong. But I seriously doubt that there are
many kids out there would wouldn't have pressed their 
advantage in the same way if given a chance. Though, I
have to say I think Harry's 'moral error' is much much
smaller than copying off the Internet or similar 
breaches of classroom ethics. Again, in my mind it is 
not so much a matter of 'if', but more a matter of
'degrees', and for the record I see a low degree of 
wrong doing.

Now off on a new subject. As I read this thread and other
similar threads and I saw people discussing Harry's 
relationship with the HBP Book. I found myself pondering
why Harry is so attached to this book and the information
contained therein? Then I considered the other sources of
the same information that are available to Harry. 

Harry hates Snape with a passion. Those two have been at 
each others throats since book 1. Harry is going to have 
an adverse reaction to anything that Snape says, even if
it is as innocuous as 'pass the butter'. That makes it
impossible for Harry to function in Snape's Potions 
Class. The tension between them is so great it interfers
with everything. Consequently, with Snape as a teacher,
Harry sucks at Potions.

While Harry certainly sees Slughorn as far more benevolent
than Snape, he none the less sees Slughorn for what he is,
and he is not pleased. Slughorn wants him for a trophy,
Slughorn sucks up to him because Harry is famous, and 
that is exactly the type of person Harry has made a 
constant effort to avoid. So, any thing that Slughorn
says or does is suspect. He is very Slytherin-ish, 
trying to make money off of Hagrid's tragedy, etc....
So, Harry doesn't value Slughorn much as a person or a
teacher.

Now the Half-Blood Prince, and his writings in the Potions
Books are neutral. The book has not personality to 
irritate Harry. The book is non-judgemental, 
non-criticizing, and patient. It is no wonder Harry 
indentifies with it. He finally has a source of knowledge
in spells and potions, that unlike the adults, can't get
him into trouble. That is, if he is caught, it will get 
him into trouble, but it is not the book that actually 
gets him into trouble, it is  the other-universe adults
who discover the book that will cause all the problems.

It is easy to see why Harry relates to the book and doesn't
want to give it up. In the areas he most needs help, the
book is helping him, and is doing it in a non-threatening 
way. At least a way that would be preceived as 
non-threatening to a school boy. The Irony of course is
that the HBP is really Snape, the one person that Harry
absolutely can NOT get along with, is the one person that
he most positively identifies with. Why? Because Snape is
very judgemental, and Snape's book is not judgemental in
the least. 

Just a few more thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn