[HPforGrownups] Re: On lying and cheating

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165383

> Magpie:
> It's not a
>> sacrifice he's making as The Chosen One.
>
Valky:
> I disagree with that, though. I say he wants an easier time in class
> because he's got enough going on that is inevitably more pressing and
> alarming to his senses. IIRC he even does contemplate once or twice
> during HBP the 'normal' life that he doesn't have. And I'm sure that
> normal life in his mind would include thinking about the Potions text
> as an unfair advantage in school rather than a potential tool that
> could arm him and prepare him in his future battle against Voldemort
> and the DE's. The fact is he doesn't feel he has the luxury of looking
> at the potions text that way, all he feels he can, or should, focus
> upon, is becoming a better wand wielding warrior, for the sake of the
> wizard world and the people he loves. Pleasing Slughorn in class would
> surely seem like a petty and unimportant goal, while the option of
> having the onus to do that off your back while you concentrate on
> other things that you feel are vital.. wouldn't that seem the right
> path ?

Magpie:
I think I'm not getting what you're saying. Here it seems like you're saying 
that Harry's getting an undeserved reputation in Potions is somehow a 
sacrifice as the Chosen One, because by having his class taken care of he 
can concentrate on Voldemort. But I don't think Harry ever presents the 
situation to himself like that, or that it ever has that effect one way or 
the other.

It's seems like if he was doing that his character would have taken a 
serious turn for the worse and started lying to himself in an unfortunate 
way.


Valky:>
> Not at all.
>
> Like I said, what he was choosing wasn't what was easy. It was hard
> for Harry to not be like other students. I'm not saying it was
> necessarily right that he did use the potions notes secretly, or that
> he made no mistake in his judgement. Harry blunders a lot of times in
> the series, and this is probably one of them. What I am saying is that
> there is no way he could have thought for a second that getting good
> marks would make his life ultimately easier in the way Carol was
> implying. Not with the constant threat of a final 'to the death'
> showdown with Voldemort looming close on the horizon. There is no way
> to believe getting good grades no matter how will make that easier.

Magpie:
Maybe I'm not following your conversation with Carol, because I don't 
understand this. Are you saying that Harry couldn't have thought what he's 
doing at Potions would make his life easier because it wouldn't help him 
with Voldemort? So that he can't be said to be choosing easy? I honestly 
don't remember what Carol said, but I didn't think there was any question 
that Harry was making his life easier in terms of fighting Voldemort. I 
thought he was facing a very limited situation--a regular class in 
school--and in that situation he's blatantly choosing easy over right by 
giving himself a secret advantage over other kids. Just like if he were 
cheating at Quidditch he'd be doing what is easy over what is right to make 
that portion of his life better.

I feel like my answer here might be completely off-base because I'm not 
really getting what you're saying, though. It sounds like you're saying 
Harry's difficulties in life put him above right and wrong, or turn 
everything he does into something right.

Geoff:
Picking up along the lines of Valky's reply, which is the lesser of two 
evils? Coping with an academic situation which, in the short term, seems 
pointless but relatively "comfortable" or going back to the neglect and 
verbal abuse of Privet Drive? Would there, hypothetically, be other 
alternatives?

Magpie:
Again, I feel like I'm still not following. What lesser of two evils does 
Harry have to cope with here? Potions class isn't a problem for him. Had the 
book not dropped into his lap he'd have been fine taking it as any other 
student. It seems like a straightforward example of right vs. easy to me for 
Harry to keep an unearned advantage to himself, and I'm not really following 
the arguments that it isn't because other areas of Harry's life are still 
hard.

Steve:
First and foremost, Harry isn't taking credit any
more than any other students are. They are ALL using someone else's 
innovation, someone else's research, someone else's genius, because every 
student in class is using someone else's recipe or formula, and that is 
/exactly/ what they are suppose to be doing. It's just that Harry is getting 
his information from a different 'someone else'.

Magpie:
He is taking credit where it isn't due more than any other student is, 
because Slughorn is very specifically crediting him with things he knows he 
is not. The other students are doing exactly what Slughorn thinks they are 
doing: using the formula he has given them, following it, and getting a 
result. Slughorn thinks Harry is doing that, and through some sort of 
natural brilliance at Potions, coming out better than they are. Harry is not 
doing that and he knows it. He's using a better formula, and better 
instructions, and not bringing any instinct to it at all. That's where he's 
taking credit for something that is not true, and he knows this. How could 
he deny it to himself?

Steve:
However, unethical as the politically
correct amoung us might see it, I see it as a very
'kid' thing to do. In that sense, it very much stays
in character for Harry. I think nearly every kid
in real life would have done the same thing. They
would have gladly accepted the 'sin of ommission' as
being OK.

Magpie:
Of course they might have--but that's a different issue. It's one thing to 
say "Harry is doing this just as lots--but not all--of kids would have and 
I'm not particularly bothered by it" and another to argue that Harry isn't 
doing that at all. It seems like you're often doing the latter at times.

Steve:
Keep in mind that is what is being tested here, not
the innovation of the recipe, but the ability to
apply a known recipe. As I said, the other kids have
a mediocre 'chocolate cake' recipe and they tend to
produce /less than/ mediocre 'chocolate cake'.

Magpie:
I still think you're trying to argue Harry into a talent that the book says 
he does not have and that he himself does not think he has. It makes no 
sense to me that Harry is supposed to have become, for no reason, suddenly 
better at Potions this year than other kids in his class who were previously 
better at it than he was. I agree that JKR's way of showing this is a bit 
dodgy, but I can't agree that this is about Harry's talent at anything to do 
with Potions rather than being a better liar. Here you see to even by trying 
to give Harry *even more* credit by claiming he's following a far more 
"fussy" recipe and so should get points for being able to follow it!

Steve:
That indicates that Harry does indeed have some
aptitude for potions. I will touch on this more later.

Magpie:
Sure he has aptitude for Potions. If he didn't he wouldn't be in NEWT level 
or getting Exceeds Expectations on his OWL. He does not have the aptitude in 
Potions that he is being praised for in HBP.

Steve:
Still though, it seems the perfect 'kid' thing to do,
and I would have expected no more from any other kid.I think many people 
forget just how separated kids are from the adult world. In a sense, kids 
live in their own parallel universe where the 'rules of the playground' are 
very different from the rules adults live by.

Magpie:
Not at all, for me anyway. I have already said I might have done the same 
thing. But I think I, like Harry, would know perfectly well that I was lying 
and putting one over on the teacher. I wouldn't convince myself I was 
actually what he thought I was, and neither does Harry. Nor do I see a 
parallel universe here. All the kids in Harry's class, imo, would see this 
as putting one over on the teacher and faking your way into a reputation 
that you haven't earned, and plenty of adults do this kind of thing as well. 
I'm not even sure which group would consider it a more serious issue.

The kids might consider it more of a crime to claim talent for something you 
don't have ("fake" is something they seem to sieze on a lot throughout the 
books). Though in this case I don't think that's an issue since Harry 
himself isn't defending himself the way he's being defended here. He's not 
trying to convince anybody he's not just playing at an advantage to the 
other kids in the class while also having a teacher pre-disposed to fawn 
over him. He's never so crazy as to say to Hermione that he's actually the 
better student. He knows why his skills seem to drop dramatically to 
Slughorn when he's not using the book and he, too, is getting "less than 
mediocre" results--as if he's not better at following recipes either.

Steve:
So from the 'holier than thou' (for lack of a better way of expressing it) 
view of us clear-thinking adults, what Harry does is wrong. But I seriously 
doubt that there are many kids out there would wouldn't have pressed their 
advantage in the same way if given a chance.

Magpie:
Again, you seem to be mixing up "I don't think it's so bad" with "Harry's 
not doing anything wrong at all." One can think something is wrong without 
thinking it's a federal crime. One can think something's a kid thing to do 
without thinking it must therefore not be wrong. I also think you're 
underestimating kids here, or at least using shifting definitions of the 
word "wrong."

When I was Harry's age, I was not above using a cheat sheet on a quiz if I 
could. I would never have told on somebody else if I saw them doing that. 
That, I assume, is fitting in with your "adults are the enemy" view. 
However, we all also knew that we were doing "wrong" in the sense that we 
were not taking the test honestly, and that this is the reason we'd have 
gotten in trouble if we were caught. We certainly didn't convince ourselves 
we weren't doing what we were doing, or that our results were no different 
from another kid who didn't have a secret advantage.