On lying and cheating

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 165411

Magpie:
I don't see that it really matters whether an academic advantage is 
foremost in Harry's mind when he does it. It seems like you're whole 
argument is that things like academic honesty are petty when you're a 
guy like Harry who's got the weight of the world on his shoulders. And 
that's a possible position, **but these things being "petty" in 
Harry's eyes doesn't mean Harry's not taking the easy way over the 
right way in his Potions class sixth year.**


Valky:
My position is that it does.


Magpie:
Maybe in your view he's owed this bit of easy because the rest
of his life is so right, but that's different than it being right 
because Harry's life is hard.


Valky:
> Do you mean '.. owed... because the rest of his life is so
**hard**'.. please accept my apology if I'm mistaken, I'm assuming
that's what you meant and *right* is a typo. <

No that's not it.. LOL ;) 

It's right because it's right. Mike helped to clarify this position a
little, I believe, by pointing out Harry using the HBP notes in his
effort to soften Slughorn up for information, that is a helpful point
to this position.

The way I see it is this. 

The argument Carol made was - using the book to gain an academic
advantage over other students and a reputation he didn't deserve is
choosing easy over right.

And my response is - Yes, it is. And Harry wasn't using the book to
get an academic advantage over other students or a reputation he does
deserve. As has been repeated in this thread many times, he offers no
defense to that at all. 

Harry uses the book initially because its all he's got in the
classroom, he has to use it and in some cases te notes are clearer
than the original text; he uses it later because its interesting and
like Steve noted, because the book is more friendly and open with him
than he believes the adults around him are, but seemingly as wise as
them. And later he uses the reputation he has earned through it as an
advantage in the cause of his mission to defeat Voldemort, as Mike
noted; beyond that he has become unhealthily attached to the book and
this is not a good thing, but something I have empathy for... and then
beyond this he furthers his use of the book to.. apply a tip from it
to save his best friends life, apply a spell from it in his defense in
a battle which he later regrets deeply.

Not one of these things is what you would call a willful decision to
gain an unfair **academic reputation**. He is feeling guilty about
that sometimes, he's caught up in that sometimes, sometimes it even
causes him to be compared to is mother which must have been nice to
feel. But overall, he is not purposefully going for a big letter E on
a NEWT he barely expects to ever see, that's not his purpose at all,
so how in any way can choosing an easy path to that end apply to his
situation ? It's not even his life.

I am saying IF getting an E in potions was the point to which Harry
was striving in using the book, THEN it applies that he is choosing
the Easy rather than the Right way to do it. 

My position is, he's not. 


Magpie:
We're saying when he pretends to be something he isn't
and takes credit for things he didn't do, he's pretending to be 
something that he's not and taking credit for things he didn't do.


Valky:

This is not how I had read the post I initially was answering, but I
see what you're saying and how it is relevent. 

In this, I guess, most simply I see 'credit' as a loaded word, it's
just academic credit. The word credit has positive connotations, but
to the Harry Potter of sixteen years old, that *Academic* credit is
the currency of kids with "Normal" lives. Its the positive
connotations that don't apply to him, not so much the rules of
attainment. He offers no defense for having it, and he knows it's not
rightfully his, but that doesn't wipe out the fact that no matter how
much he has it's ultimately a useless attainment, he doesn't really
intend to use the academic credit for anything.  



 
Betsy Hp:
Hmm... See, I think especially as Harry takes on The Forces of Evil
(tm) he actually needs to watch the slippery slope of "I'm so good
normal rules of decent behavior need not apply". We've already had
the Barty Crouch warning on that. And the Umbridge one for that
matter.

Though, to be honest, Harry knows what he's doing is a form of
cheating and lying. It's why he doesn't verbally share the Prince's
notes with Ron (to avoid Slughorn's catching on), and it's why he
doesn't relish the "potion's genius" title. It's all of his listie
parents who keep twisting things into a "not *my* son" direction.
<beg>


Valky:

LOL Betsy is that like Snape's "listie" girlfriends saying Not my
Snapey Pooooo! <eg>
Ahh it's okay, that's our empathy with the characters, they are
something else, no doubt :) And I'm flattered that you recognise my
maternalist dynamic with Harry's character, it's fine with me. 
I *would* give him a slap for losing his better judgement to this
Potions text, of course. But I'd also try to understand his
relationship with it correctly, or else I'd be just shouting at the
wind "You cheated to one up Hermione and Draco in potions!!" and I'd
be wrong.

I agree its a slippery slope, and I totally agree that Harry did slip
on it to his detriment and he knew that when he saw Draco bleeding to
death on the bathroom floor. 


In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/165378
Valky:
Pleasing Slughorn in class would surely seem like a petty and
unimportant goal, while the option of having the onus to do that off
your back while you concentrate on other things that you feel are
vital.. wouldn't that seem the right path ?

This is in conjunction with what Steve said:

In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/165380

Steve/bboyminn:
While Harry certainly sees Slughorn as far more benevolent than
Snape, he none the less sees Slughorn for what he is, and he is not
pleased. Slughorn wants him for a trophy, Slughorn sucks up to him
because Harry is famous, and that is exactly the type of person Harry
has made a constant effort to avoid.

Mike:
IOW, what comes across as Harry's oppurtunistic cheating to some,
comes across as an apathy towards correcting Slughorn to others.
Harry has never seeked out praise, Harry doesn't particularly like
Slughorn, Harry is aware of Slughorn's collecting talent motif, and
Harry doesn't particularly care what Slughorn thinks of him.


Valky: 

Thanks for your post Mike, yes I think we are on a similar wavelength
here.

It's funny you should mention reading these two paragraphs of mine and
Steve's in conjunction because I was actually thinking the same thing
when reading Steves post, myself. :P
and firther to this -

Betsy wrote:
Yes, Harry does think and worry about his Voldemort mission, but not
to the exclusion of everything else.

And I (Valky) reply:
I agree Betsy, not "to the exclusion of all else". But *with* greatly
diminished interest and enthusiasm for *else*. Apathy, I think, is a
fairly appropriate term, and its a kind of judgemental apathy, like
with Sluggy. It's almost a clearheaded apathy, a sense of putting his
energy into a winning battle, as opposed to anything that ultimately
has no seeming reason. A 'la the very thing at the heart of this
debate - Academic acheivement.


One last note, I actually feel I should correct myself on the post I
made to Carol, where I used the analogy of a dying person, I implied
that the person was in total existentialist depression and compared it
to Harry, which, as Betsy rightly pointed out, isn't really the case.

Yes Harry is angst ridden about his fate, but not all the time, of
course. Sometimes he's holding out hope that he will win and will
live, and more often than not, working towards that is what's on his
mind rather than looking to the sadness of his impending doom. 

So to say, the analogy is more like a girl who says to her teacher - "
I was told I have three months to live, I'm dying now and nothing can
change that... except, there may be a way for me to look to a brighter
future, doing the essay to perfection doesn't look like it will help
that right now and I'm sorry I don't care how its done and I have no
defense in that regard I'll probably die anyway and it won't matter,
however, there are reasons to stay and get the essay of my back that
just might save my life. So I offer no apologies for that, I'm doing it. "


Or something in that general area...