Lying and Cheating & Potions!Genius....

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 165558

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...>
wrote:
> he just wants to finish his potions without
> losing his unearned reputation for brilliance, which is why he
> switches the covers and gives Slughorn the new book

Valky:
And Magpie was just telling me how nobody was trying to say this at all. 


  

> 
> Look how desperate he is when he doesn't understand Golpalott's Law,


Valky:
He's about to make his first attempt to ask Slughorn about the Horcruxes. 

"this was a moment for desperate measures" (377).

It was typical Harry Luck, he goes to Potions prepared for another
roar of approval from Slughorn which of course he expects to be able
to turn to hs advantage in his quest to get the memory; and when he
gets there, it all goes south. He's about to lose his reputation and,
for all he knows, the memory along with it.

Afterward Harry does say to Ron that he intended to soften Slughorn up
so he could ask him about the memory. He doesn't even believe the
Bezoar is going to work, but he has to try, from his POV at the time
his reputation is all he's got. Its the Felix Felicis that prompts him
to realise that his mother is the right angle to use, but he doesn't
have FF in him in the classroom, hence his gets desperate to keep the
only advantage he thinks he has.





> > 
> Valky:
> > > The way I see it is that Harry is rushing things, trying to
> squeeze everything he can out of a short moment between now and his
> ultimate showdown with Voldemort, testing the HBP's Potions notes
> under the supervision of a competent teacher is actually one of his
> wiser decisions in doing that.
> 
> Carol responds:
> Aside from the first lesson, in which he tries out the hints and 
> finds that they work (and, by the fourth lesson, have led to a 
> reputation for Potions brilliance that he knows is unearned), when 
> does he *test* them out? He knows that they'll work and that he'll 
> get Slughorn's praise, and he keeps his old Potions book disguised 
> as a new one to insure that he keeps on getting that help (and the 
> jinxes and hexes as well). 




Valky:
Again the thing that 'nobody is trying to say'... 
What does Harry want with a reputation Carol? I'm talking HP series
Harry, here. The Boy who Lived, The Chosen One, DADA juggernaut,
School Quidditch Star... He's got enough reputations already, and he
doesn't want any of them, already, what's yet another reputation going
to mean to this boy, honestly?  

I've already corrected myself on the "test" part in another post as I
failed to articulate what was in my mind the first time round. You may
want to check that post for my answer. 



> Carol:
> But where and when does Slughorn *supervise* him? Does hopefully
> sniffing his causdron and coughing at the smell of rotten eggs count
> as "supervision of a competent teacher"? 

Valky:
Que? You for some reason think it doesn't? Supervision is an important
aspect of the duty of a prac subject teacher. If the potion gets too
excited and becomes a risk to the students, it's Slughorn's job to
know how to avoid a crisis. 

I just don't understand where you're coming from. Of course the
Classroom is a supervised environment. Or what do you think it is?

 

Carol:
> When and where, aside from conveniently mentioning why the 
> peppermint leaf the HBP suggested is a good addition, does Slughorn 
> help Harry understand the theory? 

Valky:
I never actually said Slughorn was helping Harry to understand the
theory. What I said was that the notes in the margin were helping
Harry understand as well as apply the theory. 

If they weren't then why would he have expected as much from the book
in the Golpalotts law class?

"There was Golpalotts Third Law, stated word for word as Hermione had
recited it, but not a single illuminating note in the Prince's hand to
explain what it meant."

 

Carol:
> He only praises Harry's "nerve" for presenting
> him with a Bezoar and notes what Harry should already have learned
> from Snape (and finally remembers, thanks to HBP!Snape), that a 
> Bezoar is an antidote to most poisons.


Valky:
Actually, he notes specifically that a Bezoar was an antidote to all
the poisons being studied in that class that day. As well as reminding
everyone that they are rare which is the extent of their unreliability. 

I'm not attempting to compare Slughorn to Snape as teachers. I
honestly believe that snape has the superior talent and dedication as
a teacher, but that does Harry no good because Snape behaves like a
childish brat around him. Singling him out for humiliation, dropping a
perfectly good potion, or assinging him to cut for Malfoy so that
Harry *doesn't* get the mark he deserves over and over again. 

It still stands that Slughorns experienced presence made it a little
bit safer for everyone when Harry used the Princes notes for potions,
just in case, unlike the situation with the spells, which Harry tried
just about anytime anywhere.  



> Carol:
> Hermione, who has half-finished her antidote comprising fifty-two
> ingredients (with no help from any textbook because she understands
> both the principle and the procedure) gets no credit at all. Forgive
> me for indulging my feelings here, Mike and Steve and Valky, but 
> it's monstrously unfair. 


Valky:
Yes I agree, but Hermione does get over it, it must have hurt a lot
when she was caught up in the moment, but there is no way Harry is
trying to deny how brilliant Hermione is and she really does know
that, even Slughorn can appreciate her aptitude, he does favour her
into the Slug Club. 

Yes it's a bit sad for Hermione, who copped it from Snape and then had
her moment stolen by Harry's persistence with Snapes notes, I feel for
her, honestly, but I think she is wise enough to let it go in the end
anyway, the things she values most highly when it comes to the crunch
are not books and cleverness, but friendship, courage and .... you
know the rest. 

Both Hermione and Ron are more than happy to give up school at the end
of HBP. Hermione! who once said expelled was worse than dead, is in
this for the long haul at the expense of her beloved learning, and
even for the moments that are entirely too frustrating and painful,
but part of standing by her friend who she values more highly than any
of those other things.



> Carol:
> Exactly. *Harry* know that he's not a Potions genius. So do Ron and
> Hermione (and Draco, who's smouldering with anger at the end of the
> antidote lesson, just as Harry would be if Draco had gotten away 
> with that cheeky pseudo-solution). Would anyone be praising Draco's
> resourcefulness if the book had fallen into his hands rather than
> Harry's? I think not, even though he's quite literally under a death
> threat to himself and his parents, giving up Quidditch and not doing
> his Transfiguration homework so that he can work on the cabinet. Not
> commendable, of course. I'm not feeling sorry for Draco for getting
> himself into such a mess, assuming that he volunteered the 
> information on the Vanishing Cabinets out of revenge for his 
> father's arrest, but he *is* operating under duress 


Valky:
I'm sure nobody would praise Draco if he used it, No. I'm not even
praising Harry for that matter. He lied, he was thoughtless of his
friends, he took major risks with his life and the lives of those
around him. He wasn't an angel or anything. I'm sure if DD or
MacGonagall had the time and knowledge of what he was up to, at their
disposal, they'd have kicked him royally in the behind for it and I
would have cheered. 

I simply refute point blank that he wanted or cared about having a
glowing reputation in the greater scheme of his life, it's just
ludicrous to even imagine.  


Carol:
> and Harry, Chosen One or no, is noth
> thinking about death or danger that I can see.

Valky:
Whaaaaa? You must be joking. 



> Carol:
> I don't see why people (not you, Magpie!) are still doing
> the same thing Slughorn is doing and crediting him with a talent he
> doesn't have and hard work he hasn't done, alternately with "it's 
> okay to take shortcuts because he's dying"--a thought we never hear 
> from Harry himself.
> > 


Valky:
I didn't say it's okay to take shortcuts, I said it wasn't the easy
choice to take shortcuts. Those are two different things. 

I have said time and time again, that I don't think Harry couldn't
have been wrong about it. He was wrong he made a plethora of mistakes. 


Valky taing great pains to point out that my original point was
regards to right vs easy and not patting Harry on the back for a blunder.