Satisfaction of the story to date (was: I Hate Horcruxes Society)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 163387

Mike:
> > And where was the advancement of Harry's magical skills [in 
> > HBP]? He learns a few of the "Princes" spells, but what about a 
> > full years worth of DADA under the best DADA professor Harry has 
> > ever had? Did he learn *Nothing* from Snape's class during the 
> > entire year? <snip>
 
Annemehr:
> Mike, I agree with these points of yours regarding Harry's failure 
> to learn from Professor Snape, and a seeming failure to apply 
> himself to his studies altogether.
> 
> I really felt that Harry showed a similar lack of growth, and even 
> regression, in other ways in HBP.  Your post reminded me of some 
> things I wrote to a friend last spring, some of which I'll 
> reproduce here:
> 
*********************************************************************
<snip>
> OoP worked well for me, because I thought it was going to be the 
> catalyst for a large and necessarily abrupt increase in maturity.
>  
> HBP was a disappointment then, because as far as I can see, the 
> only thing Harry "learned" was not to shout at Dumbledore.  And 
> that resolve he told DD about, how Sirius would want him to go on 
> and not crack up, well fine, but that's how he always was anyway.
> 
********************************************************************

<snip the two examples Annemehr did think of: Harry not yelling at 
DD and Harry telling DD in the broom shed that he can't allow 
himself to crack up>

SSSusan:
I've left a lot in here because I want to acknowledge that what I'm 
going to point to may have very little relevance to the things 
Annemehr is speaking to, heh.  So if my comments seem not to bear on 
these remarks in a useful way, my apologies.

I don't disagree with what Mike has stated and to which Annemehr 
agreed: that we didn't see dramatic improvement or advancement in 
Harry's DADA skills, especially since (alas) we didn't get to see 
Snape's DADA lessons and since (alack) Dumbledore's Army was not 
kept together.  I *wonder* if we weren't "supposed" to assume an 
improvement/advancement because of all those spells of the Prince's 
that we see Harry toying with and successfully utilizing, even the 
Sectumsempra which he used to "great" effect, albeit to much more 
effect than he intended, with Draco.  

OTOH, as has been pointed out, even at the end of the year, when he 
& Snape are having their little exchange across the grounds, Harry 
shows that he's not mastered nonverbal spells [NVS] and that he 
still resorts to a repertoire of spells he had access to many years 
prior.  Is this yet more evidence that Harry just can't/won't learn 
*from Snape*?  Has he not mastered NVS because Snape demanded that 
he do so?  Or is he truly just not as competent at this stuff as 
we'd hope and expect Our Hero to be?  (Dang! I mean, he's only a 
year away from IT!) Where is the kid who could conjure a corporeal 
patronus WAY before anyone expected it?  Where is the kid who could 
make his wand illuminate while not touching it?  

Anyway, it's interesting to contemplate this apparent lack of 
improvement, lack of advancement, lack of shoring up his defenses in 
HBP, unless one considers that the things he learned from the HBP's 
book were that advancement.

What I *did* notice, and what I suspect may not at all pertain to 
what Annemehr was saying, was a change in one PART of Harry's 
maturity... and it surprised me.  It was his willingness, perhaps 
even his desire, to stand up to adults.  Yes, he spouted off at 
Dolores Umbridge in OotP and got stuck carving his own hand for it, 
but I saw that as more uncontrolled anger.  (Hell, McGonagall had 
warned him he must consider the big picture, consider consequences, 
and keep his mouth SHUT, so that was decidedly not maturity that he 
couldn't manage to do so... imho, of course.)  No, what I saw in HBP 
which I wasn't prepared for was more of a SmartAss!Harry, a Harry 
who didn't seem to think of himself as just a kid talking to 
adults.  

I'm thinking, in particular, about two scenes.  The first is his 
exchange with Draco in Madam Malkin's shop, which turned into some 
very pointed and, one might argue, threatening words aimed at 
Narcissa Malfoy.  Now, I'm not saying it was wrong of Harry; 
Narcissa baited him in typical Malfoy style.  But what was 
surprising was that Harry actually stood up to her and dished it 
right back.  

**********************************************

"Put those away," [Narcissa] said coldly to Harry and Ron.  "If you 
attack my son again, I shall ensure that it is the last thing you 
ever do."

"Really?" said Harry, taking a step forward and gazing into the 
smoothly arrogant face that, for all its pallor, still resembled her 
sister's.  He was as tall as she was now.  "Going to get a few Death 
Eater pals to do us in, are you?"

Madam Malkin squealed and clutched at her heart.

"Really, you shouldn't accuse -- dangerous thing to say -- wands 
away, please!"

But Harry did not lower his wand.  Narcissa Malfoy smiled 
unpleasantly.

"I see that being Dumbledore's favorite has given you a false sense 
of security, Harry Potter.  But Dumbledore won't always be there to 
protect you."

Harry looked mockingly all around the shop.  "Wow... look at that... 
he's not here now!  So why not have a go?  They might be able to 
find you a double cell in Azkaban with your loser of a husband!"  
[US hardback, p. 113]

***************************************************

SSSusan again:  
Wow.  Now, we could argue the relative wisdom or stupidity of this 
exchange, but once I got beyond my surprise ("This is OUR HARRY 
talking??"), I was quite impressed with what seemed like a leap in 
his courage and determination to do and say what he felt to be 
necessary, to not sit by quietly and take threats.  

It's also a rather eery set-up for the time when DD would truly no 
longer be around.

The other incident I think of is in the first DADA class with Snape:

****************************************************

[Snape] turned his wand on Harry so fast that Harry reacted 
instinctively; all thought of nonverbal spells forgotten, he 
yelled "Protego!"

His Shield Charm was so strong Snape was knocked off-balance and hit 
a desk.  The whole class had looked around and now watched as Snape 
righted himself, scowling.

"Do you remember me telling you we are practicing *nonverbal* 
spells, Potter?"

"Yes," said Harry stiffly.

"Yes, *sir.*"

"There's no need to call me 'sir,' Professor."
[US hardback, p. 180]

******************************************************

SSSusan again:
Hee.  I was quite pleased with Harry's response here, but I was also 
quite surprised by his cojones. <g>  Again, some might argue it was 
stupidity, but my point here is simply that, once more, we found a 
Harry early in HBP who had CHANGED in terms of the way in which he 
was willing to interact with adults, particularly adults whom he 
disliked.  I wasn't sure it "fit" with what I expected of Harry so 
soon after the events which ended OotP, but I remember 
thinking, "Wow, JKR must be trying to get us to believe Harry has 
matured in this way."  

What's interesting in this 2nd scene, in light of what Mike & 
Annemehr were discussing, is that it also shows Harry's *inability* 
to stick with the assignment of using NVS.  Does this signal his 
lack of advancement in magic, especially defensive magic?  He's 
still got the problem at the end of the year.

Or does it signal Harry's problem with Snape in particular?  He 
*did* manage to immediately call forth an *effective* defensive 
counter in Protego, so does that indicate something lacking in Harry 
or something intuitive & positive?  Is he lagging behind where he 
should be, or does he just not do well with Snape/with Snape's 
orders?

I just don't know.


Annemehr:
> Harry might think he needs to squelch his feelings to reach his 
> goals, but I'm not sure that's the same thing as "mastering" them 
> in a constructive way.

SSSusan:
As I think about this, the question applies to what I'm asking, 
too.  Harry has great difficulty overcoming his feelings about 
Snape.  Are those feelings going to prevent him from *mastering* 
himself?  Will he learn how to overcome those feelings in a 
constructive way?  Was the Protego charm a constructive alternative 
to a NVS?  Or has his inability to do as Snape instructs and master 
NVS really put him waaaaay behind where he needs to be?

I just wonder how much of his apparent lack of progress has to do 
with a problem within Harry and how much has to do with Harry's 
problem with Snape?


Annemehr:
> Harry really doesn't seem ready to be the hero, yet, does he?  A 
> final piece of that old email of mine:
> 
> ***************************************************************** 
> I fear that in bk7, Harry will either remain as he is and 
> accomplish whatever-it-is through mere good luck or by being 
> managed, or else he will be forced to face certain facts by 
> finally being unable to deny them - an epiphany by force.  I was 
> hoping he'd grow from within himself -- a more organic, and 
> deeper, maturity.  At least, I wished for a mixture.
> *****************************************************************

SSSusan:
Oh, man, do I hope it won't be the former!  Please, please, not too 
much more luck and NO more being managed!!  "Epiphany of force" is a 
lovely term.  I'd like to hear more of the thoughts you have about 
that phrase, Annemehr, if you're willing.  

Wishing all things didn't lead back to Snape, I do have to say that 
I'm wondering if the I'm-assuming-inevitable incidence of Harry 
somehow being FORCED to see Snape's loyalty to DD and the cause 
might just bring upon an epiphany by force.  Though, yes, it would 
be awfully nice if Harry were more prepared to face that epiphany 
because of some already-achieved internal maturing.  


> Annemehr
> who most likely will be skulking into the local supermarket or 
> Walmart in the wee hours of Release Day, trying to avoid spoilers


Siriusly Snapey Susan 
who is now dreading telling her daughter that she is going to want 
to skip the midnight release party so as to avoid those tell-all 
faces she'd be sure to encounter :-(