Harry's Characterization (was: Satisfaction of the story to date )

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 163415

----Compilations from within this thread:
>
> Sandy wrote:
> As far as my dis-satisfaction with the last two books goes:
> With OoP it is all about Umbridge. I don't care if she is necessary 
> to the plot or not; I can't stand the woman, so much so that 
> reading the parts that involved her caused my stomach to knot up 
> and my teeth to grit. IOW, I have a very physical reaction to the 
> story, and it is not pleasant. <snip>

Mike:
Sorry to hear it was that bad for you, Sandy. I too couldn't stand 
Umbridge, and on my rereads started to skim read all the scenes she 
was in, slowing when a different character took center stage. Quite 
frankly, I thought Umbridge had way too much face time (part of the 
filler I lamented upthread). And hope dearly that whatever JKR has 
planned for her in DH, that Hermione gets to hit her with 
a "Silencio" before she starts to speak.

> Sandy added:
> Then there were the seemingly endless pages devoted to the Ron-
> Lavender crap that could have been so much better used. I have to 
> wonder if the juvenile readers even enjoyed that. But, as per
> the Leaky/Mugglenet interview, JKR was quite pleased with herself 
> over the romance in the book. Earth to JKR: You have more 
> important issues to address and it ain't your strong suit. 

Mike <standing up and clapping>:
Oh yeah, nice shot across her bow. My compliments!!

*********************************************************

Amie now:
I agree that his behavior in the first 5 books is typical juvenile
behavior. This also makes Harry's behavior in HBP believable as
well. I think his commitment to Quidditch and short-sitedness on
nonverbal spells is typical of Harry's previous behavior. If he had
suddenly become completely and 150% committed wouldn't we be having
the reverse discussion now? In my view, Harry was attempting to have
as normal a life as he could under the circumstances. <snip> 

Lilygale adds:
I don't see Harry taking his role as Chosen One lightly, but he has
managed to lead a relatively normal teenage life, which was one of
Dumbledore's main goals in protecting Harry from the prophecy.

Mike:
Not to sound like a broken record (how many remember *records*?), but 
the time for Harry to have a normal teenage life ended when 
Dumbledore gave up in his self-admitted ill-adviced attempt to keep 
Harry in the dark. I expected Harry to find a new priority in life 
after he found out "neither can live, while the other survives..." 
His short, stiff upper lip speech to Dumbledore in the Weasley's shed 
led me to believe that he has realized the gravity of his situation. 
Then....nothing! Sure, he pays attention to Dumbledore during his 
history of Tom Riddle lessons, yet still places getting the memory 
from Slughorn low on his ToDo list. 

150% committment? How about trying to exceed 50%? How about putting 
more than half of you effort towards staying alive significantly past 
your 17th birthday? (which he learns in the beginning of HBP will be 
when his protection at the Dursleys runs out). IMO, I don't see even 
that much effort. And that characterization seems a little too 
shallow for me to accept.

Amie now:
Why isn't it believable? As you said above, he hasn't done anything
alone before now. I think that this idea that you can't go it alone
is one of JRK's main themes. <snip>

Mike:
It's not that I expect him to go it alone. Did he employ Hermione at 
*any* time during sixth year to learn something? If this is JKR's 
theme, how much after learning he is the "Chosen One" should Harry be 
waiting before he starts preparing himself for the ultimate showdown? 
I'm saying that JKR spent too much time on the Trio's + Ginny's 
hormones and not enough on Trio's + Ginny's + Neville's, et al, 
magical maturation. (see Sandy's response, above) (Speaking of 
Neville, what happened to him after all that development in HBP?)

Amie continued:
I have to say I agree with Carol. Harry may be the "hero" of the
book, but he's not adult. As a reader, I wouldn't expect Harry to
have this unyielding commitment to the cause. While some may prefer
to have their hero be all-knowing and full of purposeful drive, I
think this flaw in Harry makes him a more believable, and
interesting, character. I don't really see it as a flaw though, just
more of adolescent behavior.

Mike:
OK, maybe "believable" is the wrong word, how about palatable? When I 
had to take a class with a teacher I disliked, I tried extra hard to 
show that I was better than that teachers opinion of me. I don't want 
Harry to start liking Snape, hell, I don't like Snape and he's never 
done anything to me. <g> But Harry, supposedly this wiz (can I use 
that term in this context?) at DADA, is stuck on despise for Snape. 
In the few short weeks since that little speech in the shed, he's 
forgotten about Voldemort and can't get past his irrational hatred to 
learn something from Snape. Is this the logical progression of a kid 
who has just found out Genghis Khan with a wand is gathering his 
hordes to come after *him*? On second thought, maybe "believable" was 
the word I wanted.

SSSusan: <condensed version, sorry Susan>
OTOH, as has been pointed out, even at the end of the year, when he
& Snape are having their little exchange across the grounds, Harry
shows that he's not mastered nonverbal spells [NVS] and that he
still resorts to a repertoire of spells he had access to many years
prior. Is this yet more evidence that Harry just can't/won't learn
*from Snape*? Has he not mastered NVS because Snape demanded that
he do so? Or is he truly just not as competent at this stuff as
we'd hope and expect Our Hero to be? (Dang! I mean, he's only a
year away from IT!) Where is the kid who could conjure a corporeal
patronus WAY before anyone expected it? Where is the kid who could
make his wand illuminate while not touching it? <snip>

No, what I saw in HBP which I wasn't prepared for was more of a 
SmartAss!Harry, a Harry who didn't seem to think of himself as just a 
kid talking to adults.

I'm thinking, in particular, about two scenes. <snip the scenes>

Mike:
I thought your second scene was going to be Harry's exchange with 
Scrimgeour, which I think you could add as exhibit C. In fact, I 
think your second scene (Harry's "Protego" in Snape's first lesson) 
was a further hint at the inherent power within Harry, per your 
previous paragraph.

JKR has hinted from day one that Harry has extraordinary powers, not 
just advanced powers for his age. What happened to that in HBP? OK, 
he still has to figure out how to harness the *power of love*. I know 
that was never going to happen until book 7. But shouldn't he have 
shown a little more advancement? Where is that kid that produced a 
Patronus at 13, held off a dozen DEs until help arrived at 15?

Lilygale adds:
True, Harry regressed back to easier modes (verbal, more basic
spells) when faced with a real life and death fight. That's not
surprising given the level of stress as well as the fact that simple
verbal spells have served him well in the past against Voldemort.
So who could predict that the simple spells would not work against
Snape? Harry didn't.

Mike:
Well, given that NVS were the major theme of at least three of 
Harry's classes, including Snape's class, I'd say that Harry was 
given enough of a hint. So not only does Harry regress back to 
verbal, he knows no new spells besides the ones he learned for the 
TWT. Is he a wizard or a mouse? <eg>

***************************************************************

> Magpie:
> Actually, I thought that some of Harry's "obsessions" in HBP were a 
> step forward, not back. His "friendship" with the Prince and  
> obsession with Draco in particular seemed far more important to his 
> success than any specific spell. <snip>

Mike:
Huh? I'm not seeing how his obsession with Draco is going to bring 
him success in the upcoming battle with Voldemort. It may be more 
improtant thematically to the "story of Draco's revelation", but 
where is this helping Harry? And you don't really think anything he 
learns from the "Prince" is going to help him, do you? I mean from 
the book, not from the adult Snape. Or are you predicting that Harry 
will have an epiphany about his "friend" the "Prince" being his enemy 
Snape, that will soften his views on Snape? This is the "friend" that 
changed from a lovable pet to a rabid dog, in Harry's eyes.


> Magpie continues:
> Let's face it, Rowling's never been interested in complicated 
> magical ideas. Magic is only important in that way when it's a
> metaphor for Harry's emotional development--like when he needed 
> to protect himself with Patronus or JKR needed some superficial 
> suspense in GoF (will Harry be able to master than Accio spell when 
> he needs it most? What do you think?). <snip>

Mike:
Yes, but as SSSusan and I said above, JKR has gone out of her way to 
tease us with Harry as a "powerfully magical" wizard. If Harry stalls 
or regresses in his magical abilities, what does that say for his 
emotional development...metaphorically?

Magpie, I think you're looking at the Picasso version of Harry and 
seeing the pieces coming together to form the complete picture. I'm 
seeing the Norman Rockwell version of Harry that's letting the steaks 
burn on the grill, while he chews out the dog for digging in the 
garden. We may be reading the same books, but the words don't mean 
the same thing.


> Magpie continues:
> I thought he had more important development in turning his 
> mind to Draco's caper because of the subtle changes it caused in  
> how he thought about Slytherins. It wasn't a big turnaround with 
> Harry ending the book thinking, "Wow, I've been totally wrong about 
> these people and they're awesome!" It was the subtle change of 
> Harry starting to pull down certain walls he'd always had in place 
> where he didn't allow himself to think of them as people like  
> himself. <snip>

Mike:
See, that's you finding another piece of the puzzle hidden in the 
overt action that pulls us the other way. I admire your ability to 
extract these subtle clues. <I'm not being a smartass, I'm sincere>

I relate to JKR's world on a much more visual level. I can still see 
my Harry, Ron, Hermione, et al, seperate from the actors in the 
celluliod abominations. <waves to Zanooda> I see the Hogwarts castle 
in detail, well... I did until JKR started moving the entrance to the 
Headmaster's office. (BTW, I've settled on the fifth floor, it works 
better for me.) Which, I suppose is why I feel short changed when JKR 
concentrates on the psychosocial formulations to the expense of my 
more temporal world. 

> Magpie finishes:
> That, to me, seemed far more important than Harry learning how to  
> cast non-verbal spells or to Apparate-and it seemed like it was 
> also something Dumbledore hoped Harry to get from the Pensieve  
> trips that were supposed to help him get to know Tom Riddle. With 
> all his Slytherin antagonists in HBP Harry seemed to have some  
> moments of recognition.

Mike concludes: <yeah, I know, Finally!>
Howsoever, I still contend that she had the time, space, and 
obligation to have Harry learn to cast that non-verbal spell.

Mike
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