[HPforGrownups] Harry's Characterization (was: Satisfaction of the story to date )

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 163418

>> Magpie:
>> Actually, I thought that some of Harry's "obsessions" in HBP were a
>> step forward, not back. His "friendship" with the Prince and
>> obsession with Draco in particular seemed far more important to his
>> success than any specific spell. <snip>
>
> Mike:
> Huh? I'm not seeing how his obsession with Draco is going to bring
> him success in the upcoming battle with Voldemort. It may be more
> improtant thematically to the "story of Draco's revelation", but
> where is this helping Harry? And you don't really think anything he
> learns from the "Prince" is going to help him, do you? I mean from
> the book, not from the adult Snape. Or are you predicting that Harry
> will have an epiphany about his "friend" the "Prince" being his enemy
> Snape, that will soften his views on Snape? This is the "friend" that
> changed from a lovable pet to a rabid dog, in Harry's eyes.

Magpie:
I'm saying that it doesn't seem like JKR has never been interested in 
complicated battle spells. The Sorting Hat sings about the four houses 
coming together and Dumbledore says Harry's power is love, and I think that 
the movement in the story is more towards a reconciliation with Slytherin 
and something coming from that than Harry learning how to do any new-fangled 
magic. I mean, a Patronus is just a spell for getting rid of Dementors, a 
specific monster. Riddikulus is a spell for getting rid of Boggarts. 
Otherwise it's kind of zap zap zap. There honestly doesn't seem to be a lot 
of thought put into a magical system where things get more complicated. 
Different skills sometimes seem randomly assigned to different ages.

What I think is more important is Harry reconciling with his Shadow, and 
that's all about Slytherin and Snape and the HBP who only turned into a 
rabid dog when Harry knew it was Snape. If he hadn't found that out he'd 
still consider him a friend.

> Mike:
> Yes, but as SSSusan and I said above, JKR has gone out of her way to
> tease us with Harry as a "powerfully magical" wizard. If Harry stalls
> or regresses in his magical abilities, what does that say for his
> emotional development...metaphorically?
>
> Magpie, I think you're looking at the Picasso version of Harry and
> seeing the pieces coming together to form the complete picture. I'm
> seeing the Norman Rockwell version of Harry that's letting the steaks
> burn on the grill, while he chews out the dog for digging in the
> garden. We may be reading the same books, but the words don't mean
> the same thing.

Magpie:
Yes, I see that you mean that Harry should be progressing in magical skill 
etc. I was only making a very limited point that I thought the obsessions 
that Harry was more interested in than getting Slughorn's memory or 
schoolwork were important developments towards his final victory and healing 
the WW. So while it's still valid to wonder why he didn't progress magically 
also, it wasn't completely treading water.

>> Magpie continues:
>> I thought he had more important development in turning his
>> mind to Draco's caper because of the subtle changes it caused in
>> how he thought about Slytherins. It wasn't a big turnaround with
>> Harry ending the book thinking, "Wow, I've been totally wrong about
>> these people and they're awesome!" It was the subtle change of
>> Harry starting to pull down certain walls he'd always had in place
>> where he didn't allow himself to think of them as people like
>> himself. <snip>
>
> Mike:
> See, that's you finding another piece of the puzzle hidden in the
> overt action that pulls us the other way. I admire your ability to
> extract these subtle clues. <I'm not being a smartass, I'm sincere>

Magpie:
I guess for me it doesn't seem subtle because when I read the books this is 
the stuff that always stands out more for me. Why does Snape hate Harry? 
Because of a hatred of James that went back to his own school days. Where do 
the antagonists all come from? Slytherin--the house Harry didn't want to be 
Sorted into and where all the bad Wizards are. Harry/Snape is the most 
central relationship to the story. Everything goes back to Snape--and Draco 
is not only linked to Snape overtly but is placed in a strategic position on 
the other side. So any change on that front seems written in neon to me 
while a lot of other things seem less important.

I was trying to think of how I'd describe it using your painting example, 
and I wound up thinking it was funny you used Norman Rockwell as an example, 
because he tends to paint kind of obvious emotional situations. When I look 
at the picture (this hangs in the pizza parlor near me so it comes to mind 
easily;-) of the policeman eating at the counter with the little boy who's 
got a stick with his belongings on it, I don't think it matters whether the 
kid packed the right stuff in his bag, because the picture's about the 
policeman talking the kid into going back home.

I have a feeling that analogy just made the whole thing stranger using 
Rockwell in just a totally different way--but then, if he did a painting 
where Harry's yelling at the dog while the burgers are burning, that would 
be intentional. (Actually, there are moments where I think are just like 
that in canon--for instance, in OotP when the Hat sings about the rift at 
Hogwarts and Harry looks at Malfoy and says something like, "I would never 
reconcile with him!" and Hermione goes, "I'm going to make a group that 
includes all the houses...except for Slytherin!"--that's a hamburgers 
burning moment for me.)

>> Magpie finishes:
>> That, to me, seemed far more important than Harry learning how to
>> cast non-verbal spells or to Apparate-and it seemed like it was
>> also something Dumbledore hoped Harry to get from the Pensieve
>> trips that were supposed to help him get to know Tom Riddle. With
>> all his Slytherin antagonists in HBP Harry seemed to have some
>> moments of recognition.
>
> Mike concludes: <yeah, I know, Finally!>
> Howsoever, I still contend that she had the time, space, and
> obligation to have Harry learn to cast that non-verbal spell.

Magpie:
Oh, yes, she certainly did. And it's not like Harry couldn't do both. I was 
just saying that I thought this development was also important for what was 
coming up. But one didn't have to come at expense of the other. Harry could 
have started getting better at NV-spells, and she could have come up with 
other things for Harry to be doing as well.

-m