The Isolated Headmaster: Implications for Snape and Harry

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 163567

Lupinlore:
> Okay, let's look at this in a somewhat different light.  JKR has 
told us two things (at least) about DD with great clarity: 1) she 
sees him as isolated (and since she is the god of the Potterverse, he 
therefore *is* isolated), and 2) he has no confidante.

Now, that means at least one thing with regard to his relationship 
with Snape -- Snape is *not* a party to DD's inner thoughts and 
plans, at least not completely.  Also, if we accept that DD was not 
flatly lying to Harry at the beginning of HBP, Snape does *not* know 
the full contents of the prophecy (and if we accept that Snape was 
not standing in the shed under an invisibility cloak).

Ceridwen:
Right.  I can see this Dumbledore very clearly.  He is the leader of 
an unofficial organization, and it isn't in his, or anyone else's, 
best interest to go spreading the secrets around.  Snape is told what 
he needs to be told, as are the rest.  The previous incarnation of 
the OotP had a traitor in it: there is no reason to believe that this 
will not happen again, with people being human and all.  If that 
incident, or even one earlier on when Dumbledore defeated 
Grindelwald, influenced the way he deals with the Order, then his 
reticence could in part be from "once bitten, twice shy".

I haven't heard the idea that Snape was under the IC in the shed, but 
I've heard speculation that he might be a spider Animagus.  Still, 
Dumbledore, IIRC, mentions that only two people know the full 
contents of the prophecy and they are in that shed.  That would be DD 
and Harry, in my opinion.  DH may reveal differently, but so far, 
this is the information we have to go on.

Lupinlore:
> Whether Snape is DDM, ESE, Grey, Red, White, or Polka-Dotted at the 
time of his actions in HBP is really of no interest to me, and of no 
importance to the point I'm trying to get at.  The thing I think IS 
of interest, and which Ceridwen is addressing, is the way Snape 
basically regards Harry and Harry's confrontation with Voldemort.

Given that Snape was *not* DD's confidante, and that he does *not* 
know the full contents of the prophecy, and if we allow that DD and 
the prophecy are the best guides to the way to defeat Voldy (which is 
an assumption that could well be wrong) then it follows that Snape 
*can't* have a true or realistic idea of Harry's potential and the 
way that Harry might best go about defeating Voldy.  And even if DD 
is mistaken, it seems unlikely that JKR will choose to show Snape as 
more in the right than the Headmaster was.

Ceridwen:
Since the discussion is usually couched in flavor of Snape, I'll take 
mine in basic black.  ;)  Makes for some nice descriptive moments in 
the book.

I had been imagining that Snape had some idea of what Dumbledore 
thought, but that he disagreed.  I'm still thinking about what you're 
saying here.  I'd forgotten about Isolated!Dumbledore, so what you 
say makes a lot of sense.  Snape doesn't need to know how Harry will 
defeat Voldemort, he only has to be the good soldier and follow 
Dumbledore's direction.

Which is, apparently, what everyone in the Order had been doing - 
taking what Dumbledore said on faith.  Their revelations in the 
hospital at the end of HBP shows that no one thought of questioning 
Dumbledore concerning Snape.  So they may also not have questioned 
him about anything else.

And if his instructions to Harry when they went to the cave is what 
he usually expects from his people, then they have learned how not to 
question.  We have seen McGonagall question Dumbledore in PS/SS, and 
now we're seeing Snape questioning, too.

Harry always did question what he didn't understand.


> Now, we might as well ask why DD did not fully confide in Snape.  
There could be several reasons.  Maybe DD is just so naturally 
reticent and uncommunicative that he is incapable of fully confiding 
in anyone.

Ceridwen:
Yes, as I mentioned above, he is the leader of an unofficial 
organization, he is fighting a war, and in the last round of that 
war, his organization was hit by a traitor.  We don't know what 
happened with Grindelwald, so there may be another good reason 
there.  Also, this would fit in with the description of Dumbledore 
being isolated and with no confidants.  That plays into the job, and 
perhaps a natural inclination in that direction helps him to maintain 
that position.

Lupinlore:
> Maybe he has a strong feeling that the contents of the prophecy are 
Harry's private property, so to speak.

Ceridwen:
And I've seen it mentioned that this might be the reason he doesn't 
confide Snape's reason(s) for returning to Harry.  It would be 
consistent, I think.

Lupinlore:
> Maybe he thinks Snape just isn't capable of "getting it."

Ceridwen:
I think that ties in with the second reason, and also with why he 
doesn't tell Harry about Snape's return.  If so, he seems to be 
making judgements on what people can tolerate hearing, which we've 
also seen in his interactions with Harry.

Lupinlore:
> Maybe he deliberately kept Snape in the dark because his plan 
depended on having a misinformed Snape among Voldy's entourage.

I don't believe the last one for two seconds.  But I could readily 
believe a combination of the first three.  He probably does think 
that the prophecy is between him and Harry.  He probably does have 
problems "opening up" and sharing his plans.

Ceridwen:
Yes, I can see this.  I can't see why it would be beneficial to have 
a misinformed Snape in LV's ranks, unless we bring in ESE!Snape.  He 
really isn't my favorite flavor.  I think I like your Dumbledore, who 
is intelligent, isolated, burdened by a war, and sensitive to others' 
privacy - perhaps too sensitive.

Thinking along these lines, I would think that an organization like 
the Order would have key people who knew certain parts of the whole 
that Dumbledore knew, so they could put everything together if he was 
unable to lead them.  He is 150+, natural causes barring unforseen 
disasters could just as easily have deprived them of their leader.  
Would Dumbledore have made such a huge mistake in not giving parts of 
his greater whole to certain trusted members so the Order could 
continue if he was no longer able to lead?

Lupinlore:
> As for the problem with Snape "getting it," though, there may be a 
theme at work.  Why doesn't he explain to Snape the importance 
of "love" and "mercy" in defeating Voldemort without going so far as 
to reveal the prophecy?  I suspect the answer is that he has tried, 
and Snape simply refuses to believe it.

Ceridwen:
Yes.  And if Dumbledore is as hesitant about giving out necessary 
information as suggested above, then it would be difficult for 
someone to take his word at face value on something like this.  Even 
on the list, we have discussions about how Harry will defeat LV - 
spells, knowledge, love, possession, the veil, and it all comes back 
to ideology: is killing in a war destructive?  Would Rowling go 
there?  Do we want our modern-day Hero to kill?  I think Snape and 
Dumbledore would have had the same sort(s) of discussion(s), if they 
discussed it, especially if Dumbledore did not give enough back-up to 
his assertions.

Lupinlore:
> The events of OOTP probably drove this home.  Snape's failure 
to "overcome" his feelings about James likely convinced DD that any 
attempt to get Snape to realize the value of the kind of virtues 
Harry embodies is, unfortunately, doomed to failure.  Thus, at the 
end of HBP, Snape is still clinging to what is essentially a mistaken 
strategy and giving out bad advice.

Ceridwen:
Especially if Snape wanted to know more in order to wrap his mind 
around it.  If Dumbledore did not think Snape needed to know the rest 
of the prophecy, he probably settled down to live with Snape's 
disagreement.  It really doesn't matter, as long as Harry knows what 
Dumbledore thinks he ought to do.

I think, perhaps, he might have been a little clearer with Snape once 
he gave Harry the prophecy.  There was some chance that LV was still 
listening in through the scar connection.  Could this have been 
another of Dumbledore's mistakes?  Or would having Snape know merely 
be more of a burden on Snape in his role as a double agent?

Would it be beneficial if Snape really did believe that Harry is a 
mediocre wizard?

Either way, I agree that Snape is giving bad advice, though I do 
think he is giving advice that he believes in.

Ceridwen.