The Isolated Headmaster: Implications for Snape and Harry

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163594

Lupinlore wrote:
> > Okay, let's look at this in a somewhat different light.  JKR has 
> told us two things (at least) about DD with great clarity: 1) she 
> sees him as isolated (and since she is the god of the Potterverse,
he therefore *is* isolated), and 2) he has no confidante.
> 
> Now, that means at least one thing with regard to his relationship 
> with Snape -- Snape is *not* a party to DD's inner thoughts and 
> plans, at least not completely.  Also, if we accept that DD was not 
> flatly lying to Harry at the beginning of HBP, Snape does *not* know 
> the full contents of the prophecy <snip>.
> 
Ceridwen responded:
> Right.  I can see this Dumbledore very clearly.  He is the leader of
an unofficial organization, and it isn't in his, or anyone else's, 
best interest to go spreading the secrets around.  Snape is told what
he needs to be told, as are the rest.  <snip>
Dumbledore, IIRC, mentions that only two people know the full 
contents of the prophecy and they are in that shed.  That would be DD
and Harry, in my opinion.  DH may reveal differently, but so far, 
this is the information we have to go on.

Carol responds:
I agree that to the best of DD's knowledge only he and Harry know the
full contents of the Prophecy. Certainly, Voldemort doesn't. But
Snape, being a Legilimens who can take memories from his own head,
could have placed the memory of the Prophecy in DD's Pensieve and
listened through the door to the rest of the Prophecy while his
younger self and Aberforth were scuffling, oblivious to his presence.
Just a thought. (If I were Snape, that's what I'd have done, unless I
was afraid of being unable to conceal what I knew from Voldemort, and
I wouldn't think that since I'd trust my own superb skills as an
Occlumens. And I'll bet anything the eavesdropping incident is one of
the three memories in the Pensieve in the Occlumency chapters.)

As for Snape being told what he needs to be told, I think that's true,
but I also think he knows a great deal more than, say, McGonagall,
simply because he has to deal with the DEs and later with Voldemort
himself in person. DD trusts Snape *completely*. That's canonical and,
as such, more important to me in interpreting the books than anything
JKR says in an interview. (BTW, I think she was talking about
McGonagall and DD when she asked, "Where is his equal, his confidante,
his partner?" I'd say not the feminine "e" but we're quoting a
transcript.) 

At any rate, Snape is some 115 years DD's junior and is also his
employee, so of course he's not Dumbledore's equal, any more than
Aragorn is Gandalf's despite his power and talents. Age and experience
combined with intellect produce wisdom, which in turn produces
isolation if there are no others of similar age and experience. By
wizarding standards, Snape at 38 or so (end of HBP) is still young,
especially compared with Dumbledore. DD could almost be his
great-great-grandfather, so it's hardly surprising that he sometimes
gives him orders or silences him with a look. And yet there are things
that Snape needs to know (I think that one of those things is the
existence of the Horcruxes). 

As for the Prophecy, Voldemort needs to believe that Snape doesn't
know the second part, or at least that DD has refused to tell him. And
clearly DD *didn't* tell him whatever his reasons, unless he lied to
Harry in the shed, and I don't think he did. So if  Snape does know
it, he found out on his own initiative by entering his own Pensieve
memory, as I suggested above. (Can it be that Snape isn't curious and
doesn't *want* to know? Or that DD asked or ordered him not to explore
his own memory because of the danger of LV finding out?) 

Snape may not be DD's intellectual equal simply because he hasn't
lived long enough and hasn't studied, say, languages as DD has, but
he's a genius in his own right and an expert in several fields of
study (Potions, DADA, the Dark Arts and Healing as it relates to
them)--so much so that DD depends on his expertise in those fields. If
DD doesn't confide in him it's not because Snape isn't is intellectual
equal. It must be, as you suggest, because to do so would violate
someone's privacy or because Snape doesn't need a particular piece of
information (for example, his thoughts regarding the person who placed
Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire) or because he can't comprehend it
emotionally. In the case of the Prophecy, he may simply want Snape to
be able to maintain his stance of ignorance of the second part for
Snape's own safety, just as he hasn't revealed the Prophecy to
Trelawney, who spoke it in the first place, for her safety.

I do agree that there are some things about Harry that Snape wouldn't
understand--the Harry he sees really is an arrogant rule-breaker, an
occasional liar who's cheating in Potions in sixth year, and a
mediocre wizard (though it's to Harry's and DD's advantage to have
Snape tell Voldemort and the Death Eaters that he, Harry, is
mediocre--best for the good side that the bad side underestimate the
Chosen One. Possibly, Snape cultivates that image of Harry to the
point that he believes it or can at least conjure it in his mind
whenever he speaks to LV about Harry.)
> 
> Lupinlore:
<snip>
> 
> Given that Snape was *not* DD's confidante, and that he does *not* 
know the full contents of the prophecy, and if we allow that DD and 
the prophecy are the best guides to the way to defeat Voldy (which is
an assumption that could well be wrong) then it follows that Snape 
*can't* have a true or realistic idea of Harry's potential and the 
way that Harry might best go about defeating Voldy. <snip>
> 
> Ceridwen:
<snip>
> I had been imagining that Snape had some idea of what Dumbledore 
thought, but that he disagreed.  I'm still thinking about what you're
saying here.  I'd forgotten about Isolated!Dumbledore, so what you say
makes a lot of sense.  Snape doesn't need to know how Harry will
defeat Voldemort, he only has to be the good soldier and follow 
> Dumbledore's direction.
<snip>
> And if his instructions to Harry when they went to the cave is what
he usually expects from his people, then they have learned how not to
question.  We have seen McGonagall question Dumbledore in PS/SS, and
now we're seeing Snape questioning, too. <snip>
> 
Carol:
Snape questioned DD's judgment in hiring Lupin back in PoA, and he
dared to suggest that Lupin was helping Black into the castle. What he
got for his pains was a cold look and a rebuke. And yet Snape was
right that someone was helping Black get in (it turned out to be
Crookshanks) and that Lupin was concealing knowledge about Black (the
fact that he was an Animagus and, later, the Marauder's Map, which
revealed other ways into the castle that Black knew about).  

But I do think that HBP!Snape is under some such orders as Harry was
under because of the UV--essentially, do what you must do to save
Draco even if it means killing me, or something of that sort. "You
take too much for granted, Dumbledore" could mean that DD is wrong, in
Snape's view, to think they can avoid confronting Draco and activating
the UV. But there's no question that DD expects Snape to keep his
promise, whatever it is, and that DD is firmly in charge of the
operation. Snape *chooses* to obey orders, but they are orders,
nonetheless.

To return to Harry, Snape may well have expressed doubts about Harry
(he can't be trusted; he's arrogant; he's mediocre) and DD may simply
have dismissed them with the fact that he's the Prophecy Boy and only
he can defeat LV. I can see Snape resisting the impulse to curl his
lip and retort, or complaining that "Potter" gets away with too many
broken rules and DD responding that Snape must trust his judgment. So
Snape teaches Harry in his own way what he thinks Harry needs to
know--whether it's Bezoars or Expelliarmus or following rules and
directions or how to identify a werewolf or Occlumency or nonverbal
spells--and goes on resenting Harry's insubordination and apparent
mediocrity, not so much trusting DD's judgment as hoping that Harry
can somehow do the job despite the failings that are so clear to Snape
and so invisible or insignificant to Dumbledore.

> Lupinlore:
<snip> He probably does think that the prophecy is between him and
Harry.  He probably does have problems "opening up" and sharing his plans.
> 
> Ceridwen:
<snip> I think I like your Dumbledore, who is intelligent, isolated,
burdened by a war, and sensitive to others' privacy - perhaps too
sensitive. <snip>

Carol:
I think I agree with this DD, too. But as I said, he could simply be
protecting Snape as he protects Trelawney. What you don't know can't
be extorted from you, and even superb Occlumency skills may not
provide sufficient protection from LV's Legilimency. Best, in DD's
view, to take no chances. (But I'm not sure that Snape agrees. He
wouldn't disobey a direct order or request from DD, but if DD said
nothing, why wouldn't he explore his own memory of the Prophecy?) 

> Lupinlore:
> > As for the problem with Snape "getting it," though, there may be a
theme at work.  Why doesn't he explain to Snape the importance of
"love" and "mercy" in defeating Voldemort without going so far as to
reveal the prophecy?  I suspect the answer is that he has tried, and
Snape simply refuses to believe it.

> > The events of OOTP probably drove this home.  Snape's failure to
"overcome" his feelings about James likely convinced DD that any 
attempt to get Snape to realize the value of the kind of virtues 
Harry embodies is, unfortunately, doomed to failure.

Carol:
I can see DD having difficulty explaining to Snape that the "arrogant"
Harry Potter embodies love and mercy. When has Snape seen Harry
showing any such virtues? He didn't witness Harry preventing Lupin and
Black from murdering Pettigrew, and attempting to "save" Gabrielle
Delacour or Sirius Black could simply be, in Snape's view, the result
of a desire for glory or simple recklessness. 

Or you could be right that Snape underestimates the effectiveness of
these virtues, which may be why, though his loyalties lie with
Dumbledore, he believes in discipline rather than nurturing students'
egos as a means of motivating them to work hard, pay attention, and
follow the rules. He doesn't want his students' love, only their
respect, and he may be under the delusion that mercy is a weakness.
Whether or not Snape concedes that love and mercy have their uses, I
doubt that he sees them in the insolent, rule-breaking brat (not
wholly unjustified) image of Harry Potter.

Lupinlore:
>  Thus, at the  end of HBP, Snape is still clinging to what is
essentially a mistaken strategy and giving out bad advice.
> 
> Ceridwen:
<snip>
> 
> I agree that Snape is giving bad advice, though I do think he is
giving advice that he believes in.

Carol:
I agree that he's giving advice he believes in (and the fact that he's
giving it certainly suggests that he's DDM). I just don't agree that
it's bad advice. After all, Snape isn't telling Harry how to fight LV.
He's telling Harry how to fight Snape *himself* (in essence, "I'll
keep whipping the pants off you until you learn how to cast a
nonverbal spell and block my Legilimency"). That's sound advice, not
because I think Harry is going to fight another duel with Snape, much
less win it, but because wanting to fight Snape will provide him with
the incentive to take Snape's advice and enable him to defeat other
Death Eaters (those who are genuinely loyal to LV or dangerous in
their own right) using nonverbal spells and, if not using Occlumency,
at least controlling his emotions. Rage generally interferes with
efficiency and accuracy.

I think Snape's advice to Harry to shut his mouth and close his mind
so that the DEs can't second-guess him and/or his emotions don't get
in his way is perfectly sensible, whether or not it will work against
Voldemort himself, just as I agree with Snape that Harry shouldn't be
casting Unforgiveable Curses--not for the reasons Snape gives, which
IMO are for the benefit of any listening DEs and necessary to keep his
cover even with Harry, but because Harry, the Chosen One, shouldn't
use the weapons of the enemy, especially if he has to defeat Voldemort
using Love. 

So maybe Snape does know more than we think he does about the
Prophecy. Or maybe he just knows that Dark curses can't defeat
Voldemort and his DEs (if they could, Barty Sr.'s methods would have
destroyed LV and all his minions. Instead, Barty fell victim to them
himself). I think that Snape has listened to DD enough to know that,
or has arrived at that conclusion on his own. And he knows that, like
it or not, Harry is the Chosen One and the only real hope the good
side has. Best that he know as much as possible about DADA so he can
survive DEs and Inferi and whatever other foes he'll fight before he
gets to the final battle.

I also think that he's the best DADA teacher Harry ever had, including
Lupin (who merely taught Harry how to get past minor Dark creatures),
and Harry would do well to get past his antipathy and remember Snape's
lessons. It's just common sense to learn nonverbal DADA spells, and
Harry could do it if he didn't have a mental block against anything
Snape teaches. The Bezoar alone should have taught him that Snape's
lessons can save lives. And he saw Snape save Draco's life. The man
knows things worth listening to.

Carol, unsure whether Snape knows the rest of the Prophecy but
convinced that his advice is perfectly sound (and constitutes solid
evidence of his continuing loyalty to the now-dead DD)