CHAPDISC: HBP28, Flight of the Prince

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163600

colebiancardi wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter
> 28, Flight of the Prince
><snip>
>Harry follows when he is attacked by Fenrir. Again, Harry
> uses the "Petrificus Totalus" curse and he pushes the immobilized
> werewolf off of him. <snip>

Carol responds:
Are you sure? Someone Petrifies Greyback, but I don't think we can
safely assume that it's Harry. Otherwise, great summary.

colebiancardi:
> Only 20 yards apart, they both look at each other before raising
their wands at the same exact time.

Carol:
Good detail--I hadn't noticed that. They start off on an equal footing
but don't stay there. I wonder how that relates to the (nonverbal)
Protego in Snape's class, and what Snape could have done to Harry then
had he so chosen.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
> 
> 1.	Why so much blood? The blood in the corridor by the tower, bloody
footprints, blood on the flagstones. Who was wounded? <snip>

Carol responds:
The only person who had a wound from which he would bleed, as opposed
to a hex or curse from a wand, was Bill Weasley. (No one was casting
Sectumsempra.) But I think the blood is also symbolic of death and
carnage in the supposed sanctuary of Hogwarts. Maybe the spilled
rubies also symbolize Gryffindor blood?
> 
> 2.	Harry's state of mind is understandably chaotic and confused Yet,
Harry seems to be holding his own with the Death Eaters and he is able
to jinx them successfully. However, against Snape, he was unable to
get one jinx or curse off fully. Why is that? 

Carol:
First, Harry hits a DE ("Brutal-face" or, IMO, Yaxley) in the back
with a Petrificus Totalus. Then *someone* (I don't think it's Harry
and it could even be Snape shooting around the corner) hits Greyback
with a second freezing spell. Harry trips one of the following DEs
with an Impedimenta and the second trips over him or her. And then
someone hits Harry with a Crucio and he thinks it's Snape. I wouldn't
call that holding his own. He's lucky he was under the Invisibility
Cloak earlier and that Snape got the DEs off the tower or he'd be dead.

But one on one with Snape is a different matter. Harry ought to be
able to hold his own as he did with the DEs at the MoM, but he can't
because Snape is a Legilimens and an expert duellist whereas Harry
hasn't even learned to cast a nonverbal spell. He's flustered and
Snape is just parrying his attempts, taunting him *and* telling him
what he needs to do to fight Snape (or a real DE) effectively. Harry
is outmatched, but he's also out of control. He has yet to learn that
he can't let rage or the desire for revenge interfere with his
thinking and spell-casting. (Snape, too, loses control at the end and
pays the penalty when he's attacked by Buckbeak. He must be a good
runner as well as a great duellist to escape unscathed. :-) )
> 
> 3.	Since Snape is able to deflect every one of Harry's spells, do
you think that Snape is an extremely powerful wizard or do you think
it is due to Harry's lack of experience in comparison with Snape? If
the latter, explain why Harry didn't have this problem in the battle
from Order of the Phoenix? If the former, who trained Snape to be so
powerful?

Carol:
I think that Snape is brilliant, highly talented, powerful, and
motivated to help bring Voldemort down. (If he were a real DE, Harry
would be dead or Voldemort's captive.) He's also, despite the anguish
that slips through when Harry calls him a coward, in control until the
last minute in this scene. Harry, whatever his natural talent, is
underprepared, having had a mental block against nonverbal DADA spells
all semester (his ability to learn the HBP's spells without effort
shows that it's mental, just like Ron's problems with Quidditch--he
could do it but his emotions are interfering with his ability to
perform). Harry is also traumatized, as he wasn't at the MoM, and he's
facing a man he hates personally, as opposed to merely despising
(Lucius Malfoy) or having no personal feeling for (Dolohov et al.). He
had similar problems with Bellatrix in the MoM after she killed Sirius
Black and made the same mistake of trying to cast a Crucio. But
Bellatrix evidently isn't a Legilimens and she wasn't merely parrying
Harry's spells. Clearly, Snape is a much better duellist than he's let
on so far--and as perhaps we ought to have guessed as far back as CoS
when he made such a spectacle of Lockhart in front of the short-lived
Duelling Club.

As for who trained Snape, I'm sure he's self-taught. He came to school
at age eleven knowing more hexes than most seventh-years, after all.
(I think DD taught him Occlumency, though, or helped him improve on
what he had taught himself.)
> 
> 4.	Much discussion has already been had on whether Snape was
imparting his last lesson to Harry with his advice of no Unforgivable
Curses, his reference to Harry's lack of nerve and ability, and his 
instruction to shut his mouth and close his mind. Explain why you 
think Snape did this if it was not in order to help Harry in the long run.

Carol:
I've recently posted on this topic (my apologies--I forgot that we'd
be discussing this chapter), but I'll summarize briefly. I think "No
Unforgiveable Curses from you, Potter!" should be taken at face value:
Harry, as a good guy and the Chosen One, must not use Voldemort's
weapons. The dangers of doing so have been well illustrated by the
Crouches, father and son. "You don't have the power or the nerve" may
be partly true, but it's the sort of "reason" that can serve as a
cover for sound advice, just as "he's for the Dark Lord" is a cover
for Snape's order to the DE to stop Crucioing Harry. As for telling
Harry to shut his mouth and close his mind, that advice may not help
Harry against Voldemort, but it's excellent advice for fighting a DE
of Snape's caliber, or near it (a freed Lucius Malfoy or Bellatrix
Lestrange, for example). As Snape said in DADA class, a nonverbal
spell will give the caster a split-second advantage, and he's also
reminding Harry that Occlumency will protect against a Legilimens like
himself. (No doubt Snape also thinks that Harry should use it against
LV. It works for him!) Controlling his emotions is most important of
all, and I think "close your mind" incorporates that idea, Occlumency
being the means by which Snape, IMO, controls his emotions most of the
time. When the mask of Occlumency slips, usually with regard to James
but in this chapter, with regard to DD, the rage is let loose, almost
always to Snape's detriment.
> 
> 5.	Snape has the same expression of hatred on his face as he did
right before he killed Dumbledore. This is right before he tells Harry
that he is the Half-Blood Prince. A lot of discussion has been
generated around this expression when we've talked about Dumbledore's
death and the parallel of Harry's feelings in the cave. We've never
talked about this particular chapter and this same expression on
Snape's face. Do you think it really is the same expression? The same
feelings behind it? <snip>

Carol:
We're seeing both expressions through Harry's eyes, so the narrator's
 description can't be trusted. IMO, the expression on the tower
reflects revulsion at what he has to do and self-hatred, as well as
hatred of anyone and everyone who's brought him to this pass,
including, temporarily, Dumbledore and possibly Draco, and more
certainly, Voldemort, the cause of it all. Harry simply thinks that
Snape hates DD, an emotion for which we have not a shred of evidence
in the books, and that perception is reflected in the narrator's word
choice. (But so is the parallel with harry's own emotions in the cave,
which we seen and Harry doesn't.)

The expression of "hatred" on Snape's face after Harry uses the HBP's
spells on him is different, however similar it may look to Harry. It
may not be hatred at all so much as anger at Harry for being so stupid
as not to realize that they're Snape's own spells. I'm sure he still
hates Harry for being so "mediocre" and "arrogant" and for hating him
(Snape) at this moment instead of realizing that Snape has, yet again,
saved Harry's life, this time at great cost to himself. Snape's
emotions are barely under control here. He's just killed Dumbledore,
run all the way down eight flights of stairs and across the grounds
with Draco in tow, and saved Harry from a Crucio, and now he's in the
process of deflecting Harry's spells, enduring insults from the kid
whose existence has ruled his life for the last fifteen and a half
years, and now the brat (his view, not mine) has had the arrogance to
use Snape's own spells against him, like his father before him.
Snape's anger, based on his old hatred of James and his longterm
resentment of James's death (which he had tried so hard to prevent),
has nothing to do with Dumbledore and the events on the tower. It's
also separate from, but coexists with, Snape's desire to teach Harry
what Harry as the chosen One needs to know and to protect him from
physical harm--as Snape has always done since Harry came to Hogwarts.

So, no, it's not the same expression as the hatred and revulsion on
the tower at all. This is Snape vs. "Potter" as usual. That was Snape
vs. himself and the consequences of the UV, which for the moment is at
the back of Snape's mind, not at the forefront. (See my response to
the next question.)

> 6.	Snape loses his sardonic cool when Harry calls him a coward and
refers to Dumbledore's death. This is the only time during the battle
that Snape actually hits Harry with a curse. Why did Snape show his
weakness to Harry? What was it about that statement that pushed Snape
over the edge?  Harry called Snape a coward earlier, yet Snape just
jeered at him then. Was it really about being called a coward or that
Harry accuses Snape of killing Dumbledore?  This is my favorite
question, BTW.  I can't wait to read the responses.

Carol:
It can't be *just* the charge of cowardice that pushes him over the
edge, or the first use of "cowardly" would have produced the same
results. The first time, Harry is making the nonsensical accusation
that deflecting curses instead of fighting back constitutes cowardice.
Snape has managed to get in his advice not to use Unforgiveables
before this first accusation of cowardice, and his response to the
first accusation is only an insult to James (the real coward, in
Snape's view) and more advice in the form of a taunt (essentially,
"Use the skills I've taught you, you moron!"). As I said above, this
part of the duel is almost business as usual for Snape, trying to get
through to Harry by showing up his inadequacy and to get a bit of
revenge for Harry's failure to understand the burden Snape is taking
upon himself by insulting Harry's father. He doesn't want to harm
Harry, just show him how much he still needs to learn.

It's interesting that Snape saves Harry from a Crucio *after* this
initial accusation of cowardice. In fact, the first thing Snape does
after insulting James and blocking Harry's Stupefy is order the big
blond DE, who has just shown up, to get off the grounds before the
Ministry arrive. And the next thing he does is save Harry from a
Crucio--to which Harry brilliantly responds by trying to hit Snape
with Sectumsempra! At this point, Snape's attitude changes from
jeering to controlled rage. He's had enough. How dare Potter use
Snape's own spells against him just like his filthy father? He disarms
Harry rather forcefully but without actually hurting him and informs
Harry that *he's* the HBP. He's probably been dying to tell Harry that
he knows Harry has been using his spells and taking credit for his
Potions improvements, and he takes the opportunity now, still not
losing his cool but clearly angry at Harry *as Harry* rather than
Harry as James's son. 

And then, as he stands over the disarmed Harry with no intention,
apparently, of hurting him with anything other than words, Harry
flings his second accusation of cowardice, this one accompanied with
"Kill me like you killed him!" Pippin to the contrary, these words can
only refer to the similarly disarmed Dumbledore, whom Snape has just
killed against his will at the expense of everything he had--freedom,
a job, the respect of his colleagues, a chance to do good even though
few understood what he was doing. And now all he has is infamy and the
dubious authority over a few idiotic DEs so long as he retains what
passes for Voldemort's trust. He's facing he doesn't know what as a DE
supposedly loyal to Voldemort. At Harry's words, the Occlumency he's
been using to mask his emotions even from himself (as I read it)
slips. The anguish he's kept at bay throughout the duel with Harry
surfaces at last. Even Harry can see that Snape is in as much pain as
the dog in the burning house despite not having so much as a scratch
on his body. In his rage, he loses control and casts a spell that
stings Harry like a whip--punishment, maybe, for all the pain Harry
has caused him, but most of all for calling him a coward after the
bravest act of his life (which involved saving Harry as well as Draco
but Harry doesn't understand that and the furious, frustrated Snape
can't explain).
> 
> 7.	When a DE curses Harry, Snape states that "Potter belongs to the
Dark Lord" and the curse is lifted.  However, that doesn't explain why
Snape only deflects Harry's spells during the battle. Snape could have
issued a "Petrificus Totalus" curse on Harry, which would not have
harmed him. Why didn't Snape do such a spell?  And who lifted the
curse from Harry?

Carol:
I don't understand the last question. Snape's "no!" causes the DE to
lift the Cruciatus Curse. Obviously, IMO, the reason Snape gives for
stopping the Crucio is not his real reason. He can't tell the DE--or
Harry--that he's loyal to the man he just killed and wants to spare
Harry so Harry can *destroy* the Dark Lord. 

IMO, he deflects Harry's curses during their duel partly for the same
reason (to prevent harm to Harry), partly (being Snape) to show how
good he is at duelling as compared with Harry's paltry skills, and
partly to show Harry what he needs to know. (I wonder if Snape taught
any of those defensive moves, which remind me of parrying in fencing,
in his DADA class.) Why didn't Snape use a Petrificus Totalus or some
such spell on Harry? Because he wanted the DEs off the grounds and
Harry safely away from them.
> 
> 8.	Hagrid has always defended Snape's trustworthiness. Why is that?
Is it just because of Dumbledore's steadfastness or something else?
After all, Hagrid was around at Hogwart's when Snape was a student -
does he know something more about Snape than the rest of the Order?

Carol responds:
Just a guess--maybe Hagrid knows that Snape did something to protect
baby Harry after Godric's Hollow. Maybe he examined the scar and made
sure that Harry wasn't possessed by Voldemort--or a stray soul bit. I
don't think it has anything to do with Severus's school days. But,
yes, I agree that Hagrid knows something about Snape that DD also knew
but McGonagall, Lupin et al. don't know.
> 
> 9.	Do you think Harry got rid of important clues when he rearranged
Dumbledore's glasses and wiped the blood away?

Carol:
Interesting question. I'm sure that Pippin thinks so! But surely the
fact that DD's eyes are closed and he looks like he's asleep (much
like the peacefully sleeping portrait) is a clue of some sort. DD
didn't die thinking that Snape was a traitor, that much I can state
with confidence. If he had, we'd see a horrified or shocked expression
on DD's face--and open eyes like those of most AK victims.
> 
> 10.	This is some background information for the question 10:	  <snip> 
> So, the question is about R.A.B.- if RAB is not Regulus Black, who
is it?  If you believe it is Regulus, do you think he is really dead
or in hiding (RE: Dumbledore's conversation with Draco). If in hiding,
why didn't Dumbledore already know that this locket was not the real
Horcrux? Why would he put himself through the whole experience in the
cave? Was it a setup? 

Carol:
In my view, RAB is Regulus, who was killed before he could destroy (or
unsuccessfully attempt to destroy) the locket. I think that Harry (or
Hermione) will figure out that RAB is Regulus and remember the locket
that no one could open next time they're at 12 GP. Finding it will
cause a little trouble but not much. Kreacher will provide the
background info and Aberforth, the Order member we've met but don't
really know, will help them to locate the locket, which I'm guessing
was among the items that Mundungus stole from 12 GP. Bill Weasley, the
curse breaker, will open the locket and de-Horcruxify it, perhaps
being fatally wounded in the process. (Not facts; just my predictions!)
> 
> 11.	Did you feel that Dumbledore's death at Snape's hands was
subtle? Or too obvious and expected? Was this in keeping with
Rowling's normal style of ending her books?

Carol:
Subtle? No. I don't understand why you would use that word here.
Unexpected? Yes. I knew from the imagery at the end of "Spinner's End"
that Snape was in trouble and I feared that *he* would die rather than
kill Dumbledore (or whatever the task was). I know that I didn't
expect him to rush in and murder a helpless Dumbledore. My first
reaction to the AK was a sense that JKR had betrayed *me* (and readers
in general) by setting up a Snape who was so clearly Dumbledore's man
and then having him betray Dumbledore. But Snape's actions in "Flight
of the Prince" showed that he was still Snape and still Dumbledore's
man. (ESE!Snape save Harry from a Crucio and deflect Harry's curses
while still trying to teach him? It made no sense.) 

DD's death at Snape's hands wasn't obvious or expected (except that DD
clearly was not going to survive to the end of the book and the UV was
clearly ominous). In some respects, the book fit the normal pattern:
JKR usually resolves the mystery and reveals the villain at the end of
the book (though in OoP we knew the villain from the outset). In HBP,
the DADA curse, which strikes in every book, and the revelation of the
HBP and Draco's plot (the detective-story element) were business as
usual, but the *seeming* revelation of Snape as villain is almost
certainly a set up. HBP is the first half of a two-part book, and if
there's a villain other than Voldemort in that book (Draco doesn't
count), we don't yet know his or her identity. We'll get a reversal in
DH revealing Snape's true loyalties: of that much I'm certain. We may
also get a traitor in the Order, but it won't be Snape.
> 
> 12.	Finally, what do you think of this chapter thematically?  Do you
feel this is the best chapter Rowling has written?

Carol:
Oi! What a question! I was too devastated when I first read the
chapter to think about it in thematic terms, but I'd say that it fits
in with the futility of revenge, the need for forgiveness, and the
continuing misunderstanding between Harry and Snape, which is more a
motif or a conflict than a theme. I'd say the chapter is more
important in terms of character development (and revelation paired
with concealment) than in terms of theme (though I may change my mind
after reading other people's responses). 

On a rereading, I liked and still like Snape's remaining Snape after
he has killed Dumbledore, with his perennial internal conflict between
hating Harry and wanting to save him and train him still intact. His
moment of anguish is moving and revealing though I can't say that I
"like" it. I like his calling out "Run, Draco!" showing that Draco's
safety is still high on his list of priorities. I like his saving
Harry from a Crucio (though Harry, blinded by hatred, can't comprehend
what happened). I really like the revelation of Snape's formidable
powers as a duellist, which nicely complement his unexpected powers as
a Healer. I *don't* like his slipping and using a painful hex at the
end, though it's very Harrylike and very human, and I don't like
Buckbeak chasing Snape as if he were really endangering Harry. It
actually lessens my affection for Buckbeak a bit, silly as that may seem. 

I don't like to pass value judgments on chapters, but I'll take a stab
at it. Except for the melodramatic bit where Snape reveals his
identity as the HBP, the chapter is well-written, suspenseful,
exciting, surprising, and, in retrospect, entertaining. Lots of irony,
which I always enjoy, and lots of unreliable third-person limited
narration (Harry misinterpreting the action), which gives me hope that
he similarly misinterpreted the events on the tower. A favorite
chapter? No, because it sends Snape from Hogwarts into the Voldemort
camp. I fear for him, not for his loyalties but for his life. I mourn
for his lost freedom and the lost respect of his fellow Order members,
who clamored to hear his report in OoP and knew he was risking his
life as a spy. I dread having Voldemort assign him some terrible task
that he'll have to perform or give away his true loyalties. If I knew
that he'd make it through DH safely, revealed as a good guy who did
what he had to do against his will, following the last order or last
request of the mentor he killed, I'd probably rank the chapter among
my favorites. Until I know what becomes of Snape, I can't place it
there. The ending is still up in the air.

Carol, thanking colebiancardi for her thought-provoking questions and
hoping that at least one or two readers made it to the end of this
long post!