The Isolated Headmaster: Implications for Snape and Harry

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 163622

Carol responds:
I agree that to the best of DD's knowledge only he and Harry know the 
full contents of the Prophecy. Certainly, Voldemort doesn't. But 
Snape, being a Legilimens who can take memories from his own head, 
could have placed the memory of the Prophecy in DD's Pensieve and 
listened through the door to the rest of the Prophecy while his 
younger self and Aberforth were scuffling, oblivious to his presence. 
Just a thought. *(snip)*

Ceridwen:
I can see the eavesdropping incident being one of the memories Snape 
unloads into the Pensieve.  But for him to take enough interest in 
that memory to revisit it, he would have to know or suspect that 
there was substantially more to the prophecy than he overheard the 
first time around.  I'm not sure that Dumbledore would ever give him 
any evidence that some of his actions were based on a portion of the 
prophecy that Snape missed.

If Snape does think that there was more, then of course, I'd have 
expected him to review it once Harry came to the school and he 
decided that Harry wasn't the stuff to defeat LV according to Snape's 
assessment.  However, if he regretted giving that prophecy to LV as 
much as Dumbledore implies, it may be too painful for him to revisit 
that memory.

Carol:
> As for Snape being told what he needs to be told, I think that's 
true, but I also think he knows a great deal more than, say, 
McGonagall, simply because he has to deal with the DEs and later with 
Voldemort himself in person. DD trusts Snape *completely*. That's 
canonical and, as such, more important to me in interpreting the 
books than anything JKR says in an interview. (BTW, I think she was 
talking about McGonagall and DD when she asked, "Where is his equal, 
his confidante, his partner?" I'd say not the feminine "e" but we're 
quoting a transcript.)

Ceridwen:
Hee, I just thought - maybe JKR couldn't find a 'ship for DD, and so 
made this comment?  Since you're putting it into the feminine and 
all.  ;)

Yes, Snape would have to have different information than McGonagall, 
and very possibly more, of a sensitive nature, to maintain his 
cover.  But there are things that DD wouldn't want LV to know, and 
until the end of OotP at least, the prophecy was one of them.  If 
Snape was mistrusted and subjected to torture which may have cracked 
his Occlumency enough for LV to get through, then it would be better 
if Snape didn't know the entire prophecy.

Carol:
At any rate, Snape is some 115 years DD's junior and is also his 
employee, so of course he's not Dumbledore's equal, any more than 
Aragorn is Gandalf's despite his power and talents. Age and 
experience combined with intellect produce wisdom, which in turn 
produces isolation if there are no others of similar age and 
experience. By wizarding standards, Snape at 38 or so (end of HBP) is 
still young, especially compared with Dumbledore. DD could almost be 
his great-great-grandfather, so it's hardly surprising that he 
sometimes gives him orders or silences him with a look. And yet there 
are things that Snape needs to know (I think that one of those things 
is the existence of the Horcruxes).

Ceridwen:
I think Snape does know, or at least suspect very highly, the 
existence of HXs.  He was the one to save DD's life after his hand 
was killed, or whatever it was, when he destroyed the HX in the 
Peverell ring.  I think more and more that the potion in the cave did 
something to that hand, reactiveated the curse or something dire 
having to do with it, which was why only Snape and not Madam Pomphrey 
could help him at that point.  There may have been other things, 
sure, but I am leaning more and more to the idea that LV's 
protections on his various HXs are connected somehow with one 
another, making it more certain that if one or two are destroyed, the 
others will kill off whoever found them out.

Carol:
I do agree that there are some things about Harry that Snape wouldn't 
understand--the Harry he sees really is an arrogant rule-breaker, an
occasional liar who's cheating in Potions in sixth year, and a 
mediocre wizard (though it's to Harry's and DD's advantage to have 
Snape tell Voldemort and the Death Eaters that he, Harry, is mediocre-
-best for the good side that the bad side underestimate the Chosen 
One. Possibly, Snape cultivates that image of Harry to the point that 
he believes it or can at least conjure it in his mind whenever he 
speaks to LV about Harry.)

Ceridwen:
I think Snape sees Harry as a rule-breaker because he is one.  But I 
also think that Dumbledore gives him latitude where he wouldn't 
another student, not because Harry's had a bad life, or because he 
feels sorry for Harry having lost his parents, but because Harry will 
need these sneakier - dare I say more Slytherin? - traits honed in 
order to defeat LV.  And it would certainly help to have LV 
underestimate Harry.  I think LV undersestimates everyone anyway, but 
if he thought Harry was competent at all, he might pay more attention 
to what he's doing and accidentally do some real damage to the Good 
Side.  ;)

Carol:
> Snape questioned DD's judgment in hiring Lupin back in PoA, and 
hedared to suggest that Lupin was helping Black into the castle. What 
he
got for his pains was a cold look and a rebuke. And yet Snape was 
right that someone was helping Black get in (it turned out to be 
Crookshanks) and that Lupin was concealing knowledge about Black (the 
fact that he was an Animagus and, later, the Marauder's Map, which 
revealed other ways into the castle that Black knew about).

Ceridwen:
Yes, and as a master of the school, it would be Snape's duty to bring 
up concerns having to do with the school.  Where I think Dumbledore 
really doesn't want any challenges is where the mission of the Order 
is concerned.  Since Lupin was a member of the Order, I think the two 
hats came into conflict here.  And, since Lupin is a werewolf, and 
apparently one of the few (if not the only) Hogwarts-educated ones, 
Snape's criticisms of Lupin may have gone against DD's desire to open 
Hogwarts to all deserving students.  So, Order conflict, and special 
project conflict.

Carol:
> But I do think that HBP!Snape is under some such orders as Harry 
was under because of the UV--essentially, do what you must do to save
Draco even if it means killing me, or something of that sort. "You 
take too much for granted, Dumbledore" could mean that DD is wrong, in
Snape's view, to think they can avoid confronting Draco and 
activating the UV. But there's no question that DD expects Snape to 
keep his
promise, whatever it is, and that DD is firmly in charge of the 
operation. Snape *chooses* to obey orders, but they are orders, 
nonetheless.

Ceridwen:
Snape also has little to no choice on the Tower.  If his orders from 
DD were to do what he had to do to save Draco, then that was what he 
had to do.  If he cared about Draco as much as is implied by agreeing 
to the UV (third surprise provision added later), then he also would 
have had to do what he did.  If he noticed the second broom and 
deduced that Harry was on the tower, then he had to do what he did to 
protect Harry as well.  We're talking DDM!Snape when discussing Harry 
on the tower, of course.

I think he had to know that Harry was on the tower.  I think he knew 
that Harry left with Dumbledore that night.  Snape didn't pass Harry 
in the hall coming up; he didn't see him in the fight downstairs; he 
knew that Hermione was taking part in the night's events because he 
had told her and Luna, another DA member, to see to Flitwick; and I 
think that it was planned, by Dumbledore, that Harry would rouse 
Snape, and Snape would stun him and put him out of action.  When it 
was Flitwick who roused him and was stunned instead, he knew 
something had gone wrong.  No Harry in the halls, no Harry in the 
fight, no Harry when Hermione and Luna were involved, leads to Harry 
on the tower under the cloak.

Snipping your next paragraph, because I do think we agree that 
because Snape doesn't have enough information, he sees Harry as 
arrogant and woefully unprepared, and that Dumbledore's reticence to 
release information only makes Snape resent Harry more.

*(snip)*
Carol:
I think Snape's advice to Harry to shut his mouth and close his mind 
so that the DEs can't second-guess him and/or his emotions don't get
in his way is perfectly sensible, whether or not it will work against 
Voldemort himself, just as I agree with Snape that Harry shouldn't be
casting Unforgiveable Curses--not for the reasons Snape gives, which 
IMO are for the benefit of any listening DEs and necessary to keep his
cover even with Harry, but because Harry, the Chosen One, shouldn't 
use the weapons of the enemy, especially if he has to defeat Voldemort
using Love.
*(snip)*

Ceridwen:
Agreed.  If Harry is to fight a gauntlet of DEs to reach his showdown 
with LV, he will probably need to shut his mouth and close his mind.  
But will Harry have to fight that gauntlet?  His friends and Order 
members may take that on instead.  In the end, it will be only Harry 
and Voldemort, as per the prophecy.  Before then, one of Harry's 
strengths is having friends and well-wishers ready and able to help 
him.  The DEs may be left to the others as their part in the final 
downfall of LV.

And, agreed about Harry not using Unforgivables.  Crouch's example, 
for one thing, and for another, if Bellatrix is right and Harry has 
to enjoy what he does, has to want it, then this would be counter to 
the Power of Love that DD believes will vanquish Voldemort.  Such a 
mastery could even destroy this power so that Harry is unable to 
complete his mission, since the emotions involved are so contrary to 
Love.

Ceridwen.