Do you agree? (Harry as Horcrux)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 163905

--- In HPforGrownups/message/163780, "Geoff Bannister" wrote:
> However, if a person is made into a Horcrux, where does the soul 
> piece reside? Indeed, what form does a soul fragment take? Where 
> does our own soul reside for that matter? Can we see it, touch it? 

Mike:
I'll try this while leaving out religious references. Realizing that 
many think of the soul in the context of their religion and that JKR 
being a Christian probably does also, this may not work, but here 
goes anyway. I see the soul as an ethereal, non-physical essence. 
Unlike an organ, like the heart, the soul does not occupy any 
physical location. It resides everywhere and nowhere within the 
physical body of the person. So, no Geoff, you can't see it or touch 
it, imo. But you are always in contact with it. With me so far?

As hard as it is to envision a non-physical soul, I imagine it must 
be twice as hard to write about it in a way that conveys your 
meaning. For this reason, imo, JKR chose to treat the manipulation of 
the soul as if it was an organ while still not giving it any physical 
presence. So she speaks of "splitting", "tearing", and "ripping" the 
soul as if it were a heart, but still doesn't envision the the end 
result as having any physical components, only a split essence.

This would mean that a Horcrux is holding an essence that resides 
everywhere and nowhere within the object. The Horcrux encasing spell 
must create a portal through which the soul piece enters the object 
then closes like one of Captain Kirk's doors after the soul piece 
passes to within. When Harry stabbed the diary he created his own 
portal. It is written so we can envision it physically, we can 
picture the diary with a hole in it. But I suspect that it was the 
magical quality of the Basilisk fang that *magically* created the 
portal by which the soul piece escapes it's confines.

You see where I'm going here? Harry has a physical representation of 
a magical portal on his forehead. JKR had to "mark" Harry to simplify 
the concept for her target audience. We can see the mark so we 
understand that Voldemort "mark[ed] him as his equal". But the soul 
piece doesn't *reside* in any particular location. It isn't in the 
scar, it *got in* through the scar when it was still a cut.

And Harry is protected from being possessed in the same way he was 
protected from Voldie's AK. But, I also adhere to the conviction that 
Harry's natural essence is more powerful than Voldie's. Therefore, 
the guest soul piece cannot overpower Harry's soul. As I was reminded 
recently, I previously referred to this guest piece as a benign 
tumor, it's there, it looks ominous, but it really isn't doing 
anything. 

Harry's sub-conscious has access to the soul fragment and visa-versa. 
Harry's special connection to Voldemort occurs via the guest soul 
piece and via the portal, i.e. Harry's scar. Furthermore; Harry's 
access to the essence of his guest is why he can speak Parseltongue 
and, ... what else?? We'll see I 'spose.

> Geoff:
> I realise that the diary and ring remain but, as I said, they are 
> badly damaged. Now, just suppose that Harry is a Horcrux and the 
> soul piece within him is removed, then one assumes that there will 
> be damage to the "container", ie Harry. If the Horcrux is near 
> Harry's forehead, that is also near to his brain and mind and 
> possibly his own soul so there could be a high probability of a 
> risk of serious injury if not death.

Adding some more thoughts from Ken:
> We know nothing really about how horcurxes are made or destroyed.
> Of the two examples we have, the diary has a hole in it and the 
> ring has a cracked stone. It is true that the contents of the
> diary have been rather thoroughly destroyed but then they were in a
> very real sense a living part of Riddle, they would be destroyed 
> when the soul bit died. The physical diary itself only has a hole 
> in it. If Harry happened to have a soul bit embedded in that scar 
> then he certainly could survive a cracked skull or having a bit of 
> his skull removed as many modern accident victims and surgical 
> patients survive these types of injuries and procedures. 


Mike:
I think I've answered the question about physical locaton. Harry's 
scar was the portal through which the soul fragment magically 
entered. It doesn't mean the soul piece is near his brain any more 
than its near his toes. As to how the Horcrux is removed; the same 
way it got in there: **magic**. Personally, I think we are going to 
see something with the Dementors. But predictions are not my forte. 
<hey Ken, can you make an accent-a-gue over the "e" too? :-)>


--- In HPforGrownups/message/163831, "Ken Hutchinson" wrote:

> Could a horcrux be created accidentally? Well in some sense, no,
> it is a deliberate act. But the details of that process have been
> deliberately hidden from us and that in itself is suspicious. We
> simply do not know if the spell can be cast in advance to take 
> effect once the murder has been committed or if it can only be cast
> afterward. If it is the former and if Voldemort had intended to 
> make a horcrux of young Harry's skull then it is quite likely that 
> the spell would have gone off as "scheduled". <snip>

Mike:
I've pitched my tent in your former camp. We have seen plenty of 
spells that are put in place to await a second stimulus before 
consummating the marriage. Lily's love protection, Hermione's curse 
on the DA roster, LV's curse on the ring Horcrux, the Room of 
Requirement, to name a few. All required a second stimulus before 
reacting and therefore consummating the spell. Why couldn't the 
Horcrux encasing spell react similarly?

Combine that with my and other's belief that the soul splitting can 
only occur with the death of an unprotected soul, that is, not in 
battle against one who can and is defending him/herself. The wizard 
*intent* upon creating a Horcrux can only do so with an undefended 
death, like Lily's or the Riddle's, for example.

> Ken:
> I don't consider the appearance of Tom Riddle during his school
> years a reliable guide to whether or not he had created a horcrux 
> by the time of the Slughorn interview. He was a growing boy, of 
> course his appearance changed during this period. It did not change 
> in a way that made him unrecognizable or inhuman but it is 
> reasonable to think that whatever changes had occurred by the 
> creation of a single horcrux could have been masked by the changes 
> one expects in an adolescent.

Mike:
Thank you, Ken. I meant to bring up this point, but forgot in my 
haste.
 
> Ken:
> Neither I, nor Dumbledore apparently, think that the point of Tom's
> questions to Slughorn were intended to uncover how to make a 
> horcrux. They were directed at getting his reaction to the notion 
> of multiple horcruxes. Tom either already knew how to create a 
> horcrux or where to get that information, in my opinion.
> 
> The fact that Dumbledore did not mention the possibility that he 
> might be a horcrux to Harry is hardly conclusive. Dumbledore is 
> famous for withholding information from Harry because he fears that 
> Harry is not ready for it. This simply could be another case of 
> that. Dumbledore never did get around to relating the story of how 
> he disarmed the ring horcrux either and you would think *that* was 
> information Harry needed to know too.

Mike:
I didn't forget to bring up these points, and I concur. :-)

> Ken:
> 
> PS: Here is a really wild theory that came to me one night this
> weekend when I woke for some reason. Could Dumbledore have been a
> horcrux? Tom did make a wand movement in that scene in Dumbledore's
> office and we were intended to believe that was when he cursed the
> DADA position. What if it had a different purpose entirely? What if
> Tom had become convinced that Dumbledore was the closest thing to a
> Gryffindor relic that he was likely to find? Even I am distrustful 
> of thoughts that come in the middle of the night and yet....

Mike:
Alas, here we part company. The scene you were referring to reads:

"For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless 
warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his 
pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had 
turned away, the door was closing, ..." (HBP p. 446, US)

He never got to his wand. Unless he knows how to cast the Horcrux 
encasing spell wandlessly and without Dumbledore realizing it, I'm 
afraid it was just one of those disjointed dreams.

Now its time for one of my silly questions. Why isn't Harry still 
protected by whatever Lily did in Godric's Hollow? Does it wear off?

Mike, who has noticed that LV has flung three AKs at Harry and been 
foiled each time. Some guys are just bad shots.