Why a Time-Turner won't work for GH (WasNewbie theory - Harry at Godric's Hollow

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163916

Carol earlier:
> > It takes one turn for the Time Turner to take the user back one hour.
> 
Jordan:
> <snip> According to hp-lexicon (no access to primary source at the
moment), at the department of mysteries, "A large glass-fronted case
stands against a wall within which many Time-Turners of various sizes
rest on shelves." - various sizes. I imagine there are probably time
turners that count in days, maybe weeks - a year might be a bit
far-fetched.

Carol:
I was going by the one Time-Turner we've seen in operation, Hermione's
(now returned to the MoM and probably destroyed), which we know to be
an hourglass, operating in one-hour increments. Those other
Time-Turners, which may have been hourglasses or may have counted time
in days, weeks, months, or years as you speculate, are all destroyed.
So the only way for HRH to obtain a Time-Turner is to conveniently
find one in the ruins of the house at Godric's Hollow (If Lily was an
Unspeakable, as some posters think, she might have owned or borrowed a
Time-Turner). And how extra-convenient if it were a dayglass or
weekglass or monthglass rather than an hourglass. (It all smacks of
deus ex machina to me, but I'll go along with the scenario for the fun
of it).
> 
Carol earlier:
> > Even if Harry got hold of one or found one that had, say, belonged
to Lily, he would have to figure out exactly how many hours it would
take to go back to October 31, 1981. Let's say, for simplicity's sake,
that he visits Godric's Hollow just before midnight on October 31,
1997. He needs to multiply 24 hours in a day times 365 days a year
times sixteen years, not counting an extra day for the Leap Years
(1984, 1988, 1992, 1996) that occurred in between. By my calculations,
that's exactly 140,256 turns of the Time Turner. If we calculate one
turn per second, that's approximately  minutes or roughly 39 hours of
standing there turning the Time Turner, trying not to lose count or
allow [anything to distract him].

Jordan:
> Let's suppose that the amount of time a time-turner goes back
> corresponds to the size of the "hourglass" contained therein. A
> one-hour time turner is small enough to be worn around the neck
> conveniently. Now, to hold 24 times as much sand, an hourglass would
> only have to be a bit less than three times the size in all
> directions.
> 
> 5844 turns is still a bit much, but it approaches feasibility, only
> taking a bit over an hour and a half at one turn per second. Now, a
> one-week time turner would only be a bit over 5.5 times as large in
> all directions as a one-hour one, and would only require 835 turns.
><snip>

Carol responds:
Suppose that your speculations are correct and Time-Turners exist in
all varieties, distinguishable by size. Suppose that the kids find a
Time-Turner in the rubble at Godric's Hollow, miraculously
undiscovered by the Aurors who investigated the Potters' deaths and
unbroken after sixteen years. Suppose that they figure out that it
must be, say, a weekglass. Hermione, the practical one, calculates
that they'll need exactly 835 turns. All they need to do is stand
there, making sure that nothing distracts the person turning the 
Time-Turner to make him or her lose count, for 835 seconds (roughly
fourteen minutes). That's *if* it's a weekglass and they've identified
it correctly. If it's a dayglass, they have to stand there waiting for
5,844 seconds (1.6 hours). Perseverance, luck, concentration,
patience. It could be done, I suppose, even by seventeen-year-old or
eighteen-year-old kids. But again, they'd have to be sure that it's a
dayglass. I'll suspend my disbelief for the moment and assume that
Hermione can do that.
> 
Jordan:
> The bigger issue, as I see it, is that with a time turner you can't
> actually *change* anything. The best he could do would be to take
his parents into hiding (making sure that lily's sacrifice /
protection on baby!Harry still "counts" or providing an alternate
mechanism for the scar and Voldie's "death") and keep them from being
noticed for the duration (and I do mean the duration - so far as we
know, the only way forward in time is the long way)
>
Carol:
Yes. Here we almost agree. As I said in another post to this thread,
"I don't see how Time-Turned Harry can have been at Godric's Hollow,
or why he would be there. He can't change history. He'd have had to
have been there in the first place, as Time-Turned Harry and Hermione
were "always" there to save Buckbeak and Sirius Black." Later in the
same post, and in the one you're responding to, I suggested a
Pensieve, which would pose its own set of difficulties, but bear with
me. I'll get there.

To return to the Time-Turner problem. Time-Turned!Harry would have his
scar because of what already happened at Godric's Hollow. He would be
alive and have the power to defeat Voldemort because of his mother's
sacrifice. Those things can't be undone, at least not without a
serious disruption of subsequent events and even his own existence. If
he attempts to alter history, his past self, and therefore his present
self, could be killed. Or Voldemort could AK Time-turned!Harry. If he
prevents his mother's death, he'll deprive his present self of the
scar and therefore of the powers he's acquired from Voldemort. But
that won't happen because it was Lily's sacrifice and not
Harry-from-the-future that vaporized Voldemort and set the events
relating to the Prophecy in action, unlike PoA, where Time!Turned
Harry and Hermione were there all along, unknown to their past selves.

If Time-Turned!Harry could change history by taking his parents into
hiding as you suggest, somehow convincing them that he was
Harry-from-the-future and not a DE Polyjuiced to look like James, the
events at GH would be undone. James and Lily might be alive and in
hiding for sixteen years, but Harry wouldn't be the Chosen One with
the power to defeat Voldemort. The Prophecy wouldn't be activated,
Voldemort wouldn't be vaporized, and many more people would be dead
because VW! would not have ended. Lily's self-sacrifice would not have
occurred and Voldemort, protected by his Horcruxes, would be
unbeatable. Bad as they were, the events at Godric's Hollow resulted
in something good--Harry as the Chosen One. Even if Harry could undo
history by going back, it would be disastrous to do so. Lily's death
and the love magic it activated brought eleven years of peace to the
WW and transformed Harry into the only person who can defeat Voldemort.

All a Time-Turned Harry would be able to do without devastating
consequences is to watch helplessly as Voldemort killed his parents
and tried to kill his younger self. It would be a whole lot safer to
do so in a Pensieve, where the Potters and Voldemort are only memories
and can't see him or react to his presence, than to risk being seen or
altering history, even if all the difficulties I've outlined for
finding and using a Time-Turner were overcome.

Just for fun, to lighten up the tone of this post, here's my argument
in dialogue form.

SCENE: The ruins of the house at Godric's Hollow, Halloween 1997.

Hermione: Harry, I'm so sorry. This must be awful for you.

Harry: No, it's all right. I--I wanted to come here. I just
wish--Never mind.

Ron (pointing): What's that? Do you see that gleam over there? (They
run to the spot he's pointing at.)

Harry (digging through the rubble and holding up the object): It's an
hourglass!

Hermione: It's a Time-Turner, Harry. Only it's, well, a lot bigger
than mine was.

Ron: I thought they were all broken.

Hermione (giving him a withering look): Only the ones at the Ministry,
Ron. This one must have been here since--

Harry: Since my parents died. You can say it, Hermione. Maybe we could
use it to go back and stop Voldemort--

Hernione: You can't do that, Harry. You might end up killing your past
self or your present self. Or you'd change history. You wouldn't have
your scar--

Harry: I don't want the damned scar.

Hermione: It's too risky, Harry. You can't be seen. And, anyway, when
we saved Buckbeak, well, we'd already saved him. Just like you'd
already cast that Patronus.

Ron: Huh?

Hermione: So if you were going to go back and save your parents, you'd
already have done it, and they wouldn't be dead.

Ron: What?

Hermione: So all you could do if you went back is watch them die--and
not do anything about it. Because, well, as I understand it, Voldemort
gave you some of his powers when he gave you that scar. I don't really
understand the Prophecy, but he made you the Chosen One by attacking
you after your mother died to save you, and--

Harry: All right, all right! We'll just watch, okay? Or I'll just
watch. You don't have to come.

Ron: We can all watch under the Invisibility Cloak.

Harry: If I hadn't left it on the Astronomy Tower after Snape--

Ron: We can go back.

Harry: *You* can go back and get it. I'll stay here and turn the thing
while I wait for you. How many turns will it take, Hermione?

Hermione: I don't know. If it's an hourglass--

Harry: What do you mean, *if* it's an hourglass?

Hermione: Well, if it's an *hour*glass, it's going to take an awful
lot of turns. But it could be a *day*glass, so to speak, or a
*week*glass. Judging from the size, I'm guessing that it's a weekglass.

Harry: Which means?

Hermione: You know. The turns could take you back a day or a week at a
time instead of an hour. Or a month or a year or--

Harry: But how many turns would it take? That's all I'm asking. 

Hermione: I don't have a calculator--

Ron: What's a calculator?

Hermione (ignoring him): Harry, do you have a quill and parchment?

Harry (impatiently): Do you see my bookbag? We're not at Hogwarts,
Hermione.

Hermione: All right, then. You don't need to be so testy. (Does some
quick calculations in the dirt with her wand.) Okay, if it's an
hourglass, we'd need 140,256 turns--that's one turn per second for 39
hours. I don't see how we--

Ron: We could take turns.

Hermione (ignoring him): If it's a dayglass, we'd need 5,844 turns.
That's a lot better, only 1.6 hours, but still, we could easily lose
count. But if it's a weekglass, it would be 835 turns, only fourteen
minutes. We could do it if we didn't have any distractions. But still,
there's the problem of being seen. Even if only Harry went back, and
if he managed to keep out of sight--

Ron: And didn't try to fight You Know who or get hit by a stray curse--

Hermione: --it would be risky. And, of course, we still don't know
which kind of Time-Turner it is until we try it. What if you
accidentally went back 835 years?

Harry: Exactly what do you suggest, Hermione?

Hermione: I don't think we should try to use it. Too many things could
go wrong. I think we should turn it in to the Ministry. We destroyed
all their Time-Turners, after all.

Ron: And a lot of Prophecy orbs. And maybe that brain I Accio'd.

Harry (ignoring Ron): I meant, how do you suggest that I get back to
the night my parents died? How do I find out what happened that night?
Maybe someone else was there. Maybe--I don't know. I just have some
questions that I need answers to.

Hermione: There's only one safe way to go back, Harry. A Pensieve. I'm
sure McGonagall would let us use Dumbledore's if it's still at Hogwarts. 

Harry: But how would we get the memory? I mean, I was there, of
course. I didn't see the whole thing, and I don't remember it, but we
could probably walk around in my memory, all of us, only I don't know
how to get it out of my head. I've only ever seen Dumbledore do it.

Hermione: And Snape.

Harry: Don't say his name!

Hermione: But Slughorn must know how to do it. You got that memory
from him, remember?

Harry: That's it! We'll ask Slughorn to help us. And I can get my
Invisibility Cloak off the Astronomy Tower while we're there.

Carol, thanking Jordan for the inspiration for this little scene and
hoping that one or two people found it amusing