Why a Time-Turner won't work for GH & theory about Dumbledore's Watch

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 164053

> Carol, agreeing that the two watches are intriguing but not that
> Time Travel was required to obtain the memories from Hokey, Morfin,
> Ogden,or Burke

Ken:
> I would go a little farther though. I would say that the just-in-
> time, lucky-to-have-got-them-at-all circumstances behind some of 
> those memories would argue that DD was not time traveling. If you
> are time traveling why wait until the very last moment to get the
> memory? Why not go back to the *best* possible moment (whenever you
> figure that is) to get the memories?

Jen: I read all the important memories again and agree now that time 
travel didn't have to be involved.  My thoughts on when Dumbledore 
started investigating Riddle's history differ from yours though 
Carol, that portion is at the end of this post. 

First I have a theory about the watches, one that could tie up some 
loose ends and *might* explain more about the events of GH (although 
I can't reconcile two issues with the information we have so far).

The MOM couldn't trace Dumbledore's comings and goings in HBP and 
Dumbledore mentioned jinxing Dawlish as a way to evade MOM 
interference.  But Scrimgeour was head of the Auror office and was 
said to be clever, so there must have been other ways he attempted to 
locate Dumbledore besides a tail who kept getting jinxed out of 
action.  Then I remembered Dumbledore's comment in PS, 'I don't need 
a cloak to become invisible.'  

Given the symbols on the two watches, the planets on Dumbledore's and 
the stars and odd symbols on Ron's, do the watches alter not time, 
but space and matter?  If so, I wondered what the restrictions would 
be for such an event and decided the person might specify a certain 
amount of time in which their physical matter would dissolve, leaving 
them able to observe events but not act.  I think this works for the 
Mirror of Erised scenes when Dumbledore was observing Harry and Ron, 
because on the night he actually spoke to Harry, he said: 'Strange 
how nearsighted being invisible can make you' indicating he was 
actually in the room on that particular night and Harry did pass by 
him unnoticed.

I took this a little further to speculate about GH and wondered if 
Dumbledore could have been there but couldn't act.  That might 
explain the cave scene, he was reliving the awful memory of GH: 'Make 
it stop....it's all my fault...don't hurt them, hurt me instead'.  
This even works with the Secret Keeper and why Dumbledore didn't 
attempt to help Sirius after Azkaban if he was told the location 
before the switch, proving to him that Sirius was the SK and the 
traitor.  Plus JKR hasn't closed the door on the idea *someone* else 
was at GH that night, people have speculated Peter or Snape but it 
could have been an invisible DD who couldn't act and therefore has 
the painful memory of the events for Harry to see in the Pensieve.  

There are two pieces I can't reconcile though:  1) How did Dumbledore 
miss seeing Voldemort's wand?  That's the most useful reason for 
saying Peter was the other person at GH that night.  Sure Peter could 
have come later and scooped up the wand, but how could DD have missed 
this?  I'm not a Manipulative!DD fan and therefore don't think he 
would see the wand, keep it himself and then arrange for its return 
*just* so the brother wand effect might happen at some point.  That's 
way too risky, especially since at the time of GOF there was no 
certainty Voldemort would get his body back.  Maybe if he were fully 
functional *maybe* Dumbledore would see the brother wand as less of a 
risk than a new wand, but I don't see this working for the story as 
written. 

2) Why he didn't scoop up Harry himself once his physical body 
reappeared?  If he ordered Hagrid to the scene then he was able to 
take action and could have taken care of Harry himself. Even if he 
wanted to investigate what happened to Voldemort, he would still have 
waited until Hagrid arrived.  Hagrid said he was the one to resuce 
Harry himself, take him from the ruins, so Dumbledore was not there 
when he arrived.  There are ways around this one--Hagrid was 
exaggerating, Hagrid didn't see DD b/c he was invisible again--but 
nothing I can come up with that's entirely plausible. (The part about 
Sirius being involved is easy to get around by saying DD disapparated 
before Sirius arrived.)

All of the GH theory is speculation, but I do like the idea of the 
watches altering space and matter.  The Trio has outgrown the 
Invisibility Cloak and while it's useful for wandering around the 
castle, the fact that you can hear and see a person under the cloak 
is a big detriment for stealthy detective work as we saw in HBP with 
Harry and Draco.

**Back to Dumbledore's memories now**
> Carol responds:
> I don't see the oddity. Even if he didn't yet suspect Horcruxes, he
> certainly suspected that Tom Riddle had killed his own parents and
> framed his uncle, just as he knew that the Muggle, Frank Bryce,
> suspected by the Muggle police (but fortunately not arrested) was
> innocent. ("I read the Muggle papers, you see.") 
<snip>
> As for Hokey, DD would again have suspected that Tom Riddle was
> responsible. 

Jen: While reading the memories again it occurred to me Dumbledore 
probably didn't investigate the murder of Riddle's dad and 
grandparents until after the Hepzibah Smith murder at the earliest.  
He tells Harry this: "What I know, I found out after he left 
Hogwarts, after much painstaking effort, after tracing those few who 
could be tricked into speaking, after seaching old records and 
questioning Muggle and wizard winesses alike." ('A Sluggish Memory', 
p. 339 Bloomsbury)  

DD also went through a list of reasons why he believed Voldemort 
wanted the DADA position at 18 and then told Harry, 'I had advised 
Armando against the appointment--I did not give the reasons I have 
given you, for Professor Dippet was very fond of Voldemort and 
convinced of his honesty--but I did not want Lord Voldemort back at 
this school, and especially not in a position of power.' ('Lord 
Voldemort's Request, p. 404, Bloomsbury).  At no point does he 
suggest that suspected murder was one of the reasons for advising 
against the appointment, though.

Jen