CHAPDISC: HBP 29, The Phoenix Lament

Tue Jan 23 19:08:00 UTC 2007

No: HPFGUIDX 164082

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" 
<spotthedungbeetle at ...> wrote:
><SNIP of the great summary, I wish I could summarise like you do - 
concise and to the point and beatifully written)
> 
> Discussion questions:
> 
> 1. This chapter is a nice opportunity for JKR to show us a variety 
> of characters' reactions to the same emotional upheaval - 
> Dumbledore's death. Did any of their reactions particularly inspire 
> sympathy in you? Which character reacted most similarly to you? Is 
> that character one you normally sympathise or identify with? 

Alla:

Harry.

> 2. (Take off your DDM!Snape hats for this one, please.) In this 
> chapter, McGonagall and Tonks ask the same questions that fans have 
> been asking for years, namely: what did Snape tell Dumbledore to 
> make him trust him? Do you think, given Lupin, McGonagall and 
> Tonks's astonishment at Harry's story, that *even if Snape really 
> has* betrayed the Order and rejoined Voldemort, there still must 
> have been more than a `tale of remorse' to how he hoodwinked 
> Dumbledore? How do you think ESE!Snape (or similar variants) could 
> have convinced him? What themes that the books have already visited 
> would Snape's tale (and the fact that it was fake) resonate with, 
> and how could his ability to fool Dumbledore reflect upon Harry's 
> story?

Alla:

Oooooo, I am happy to see a question for which I do not have to wear 
any hats. 

I honestly do not think that the Evil Snape or its varieties would 
have had that much trouble convincing Dumbledore.

After all, unless plot requires him to do otherwise <g>, Dumbledore 
always gives people second chances, looks for the best in people, 
etc, etc. I mean, I am just saying that Dumbledore IMO is not looking 
very hard to give the person second chance, he is IMO happy to do so 
if he sees smallest possibility that the person wants to be redeemed.

We see Dumbledore offering a second chance to Malfoy, who tried to 
kill him, no less. We hear that he is ready to offer protection 
**not** just to Malfoy, but to his mother and father and I doubt that 
many people disagree that Malfoy Sr. is a hardened criminal.

So, in comparison to this wonderful family, what did Snape do to 
Dumbledore? ( well, he killed him, but that happened much later, lol)

As far as we know, nothing. Oh, he gave prophecy to Voldemort, oh he 
is a member of DE, but in my view in Dumbledore's eyes Snape would 
not look any worse than any DE who came to "spin a tale of deepest 
remorse".

I think Dumbledore is always ready to eat it up with the spoon. IMO 
of course. 

Was there more than "remorse" to tell DD about? I have no clue and as 
many of us would love to know obviously. But what I am trying to say 
that even if Snape came to Dumbledore **only** with the tale of the 
deepest remorse, I doubt that he would have problems convincing 
Dumbledore of his sincerity.

Oh, I am soooo sorry, Headmaster that I helped Voldemort to target 
Potters, I am so very sorry that their son is now an orphan. Please 
forgive me. Right.

Okay, after I read it – it does sound sarcastic, but I truly think 
that it is very possible that this was all that Snape told DD, with 
different tone of course – the sincere one.

As to your question about themes Evil Snape and its varieties would 
have resonated with – betrayal of course. It could be sort of twist 
on Peter's fate ( how they different or similar). It could also be 
the comparison of Snape and other DE who got free ( Karkarov, Lucius, 
etc)

What influence Evil Snape story would have had on Harry? I would say 
forgiveness of course. Yes, I think Harry would have to forgive 
Snape, but for Harry to make it hard to forgive Snape, Snape should 
be the horrible person, someone who committed G-d knows how many 
wrongs and hero still has to forgive him.

> 3. Assuming Hermione's account of events in Snape's office is 
> accurate, what do you make of her and Luna's gullibility? Are you 
> annoyed that they didn't realise immediately that Snape had 
> stupefied Flitwick and try to stop him? Since Ron, Neville and 
Ginny 
> weren't much more use when confronted by the Peruvian Darkness 
> Powder, and only made it through the fight because of the Felix 
> Felicis, have your views on how useful the DA really was changed?

Alla:
I am definitely not annoyed with Hermione and Luna. Why should they 
expect that Snape would stupefy Flitwick? I do not hold it against 
them that they did not see it coming right away.

> 6. In ch5 p92 (UK ed.) Molly says (of Bill and Fleur) "It was the 
> same last time he was powerful, people eloping right left and 
> centre –" yet Lupin seems here to be an exception, holding out 
> against this all-too-human reaction in times of war. Do you find 
> this consistent with his character? Given the close friends he has 
> lost, do you understand him wanting to keep Tonks at arm's length, 
> or do you agree with Molly that he's being ridiculous? How does his 
> behaviour regarding Tonks compare with Harry's later break-up with 
> Ginny?

Alla:

You know, I do go back and forth as to how well Lupin/Tonks were 
foreshadowed, but I definitely find him wanting to keep Tonks away to 
be very sweet, just as I found Harry breakup with Ginny to be sweet. 
Stupid, but very understandable in light of what you wrote Remus had 
been through.

> 7. Do you think that the fact that Dumbledore's portrait is 
sleeping 
> peacefully and looking untroubled is significant? If so, what do 
you 
> think it signifies, and if JKR had wanted to signify the opposite, 
> how do you think she would have done it? 

It signifies that Dumbledore is very happy that his great plan to 
make Snape the Superspy, Voldemort's most trusted man by asking Snape 
to rip his soul apart was executed successfully  <g> Did I just say 
that?

And for another interpretation

It is simply a dramatic effect, because the man like Dumbledore 
cannot meet death in a different way but peaceful. How else his 
portrait will look no matter how he died?
I sincerely doubt that it would be screaming violently, simply 
because it is Dumbledore and he would look dignified regardless of 
what he felt before he died, IMO of course.

Do portraits even know how the people in them died? Aren't they made 
beforehand and magical imprint of the memory is taken earlier?

> 9. What do you make of Slughorn's reaction to Dumbledore's death, 
> his shock at Snape's culpability, his ambivalence about the school 
> reopening, and his seeming reluctance that the students should stay 
> for the funeral? How does this compare with his manner with 
> Dumbledore in chapter four? If the school reopens, do you think he 
> will stay on as potions master and head of Slytherin, and do you 
> think Dumbledore's death will affect his decision?

Alla:

Slughorn's thoughts on Snape? I think he really said it - I thought I 
knew him to me signifies shock and dissapointment.

I hope Slughorn stays, I think he does grow because of DD's death and 
I hope we will see him if not being the fighter in the battle, but at 
least protecting his students somehow.

> 10. Do you think Harry was right not to tell McGonagall where he 
> went with Dumbledore? Would you have had the courage (or 
> stubbornness) to do the same at his age? Do you think that he did 
> what Dumbledore would have wanted? McGonagall will almost certainly 
> ask Dumbledore's portrait where he took Harry when it wakes up; 
what 
> do you think it will tell her? Since all the portraits are sworn to 
> help the current head, do you think they will tell her about the 
> horcruxes? If they refused, do you think she has the potential to 
> turn into an Umbridge, or worse?

Alla:

Yes, I do. Harry is blamed when he does listen to Dumbledore and when 
he does not, lol ( Not saying that  you are blaming him in this 
question, just that I read it often enough and not disputing 
anybody's right to blame him either).

He did exactly what Dumbledore wanted and I wrote about it in the 
past, but I will say it again – despite the fact that it would be 
nice if Harry shared  it with the Order, first there are could be 
unwanted eyes and ears and second and IMO most important reason it is 
the device for kids (teens now, almost adults) to be front and center 
without adults interference.

After all that is what great Albus Dumbledore wanted. 

And I am not sure what you mean about Mcgonagall turning into 
Umbridge? You mean that she would beat it out of DD portrait or 
coerce it in some way? For some reason I just do not see it.

> 12. Hagrid is inconsolable; did you find his reaction to 
> Dumbledore's death moving? We don't get to see what he thinks of 
> Snape's apparent treachery, do you think this omission is 
> conspicuous? Hagrid insists that he's staying whether the school 
> opens or not, because Hogwarts is his home, even though his hut has 
> just been burned down. Do you think he only wants to stay because 
of 
> Grawp, or do you think he might have another reason that we don't 
> know about? 

Alla:

Yes, I think Hagrid will stay because of Hogwarts is his home.

No, I do not think that he would be the contact point for Snape, whom 
he secretly still trusts.

> 16. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix 
> had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left 
> the school, had left the world 
 had left Harry." Did you find this 
> ending to the chapter poignant? Does it wear off after the sixth re-
> read? If we see Fawkes again in book 7, do you think we will get to 
> know him as a character in his own right, or will he always be 
> associated with and symbolise Dumbledore?
> 

Alla:

I think it is very poignant. I did cry when I read it first couple 
times. I still find it very touching.

Well, JKR said Fawkes will play a role. We shall see, I guess.

Thanks Dung  :)

I truly enjoyed your questions. They are spectacular. I may come back 
even to those that I already answered briefly.