Lupin and Sirius and being single/Why did Snape remove *that* memory? Was:Takin

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164161

> Raechel:
> Also, I respectfully disagree with what you said about friends not
> influencing each others choices. It's been my experience that often
> single people hang out mostly with other singles, couples hang out
> mostly with other couples, and people with kids hang out mostly 
with
> people who have kids. It's because they have more things in common.
> Obviously, there are exceptions considering that I'm married with 
kids
> and my best friend is single.
> 
> Lynda:
> I've noticed the same thing, (and I think that JKR actually does a 
good job
> of carrying this idea through in the books) that, for the most 
part, single
> people have more single friends, couples hang out with couples, 
etc. My
> closest friend is two months older than myself (nearly to the day) 
also
> single, and likeminded as far as entertainment and faith is 
concerned. I do
> have some close married friends as well, but due to the 
differences in our
> lifestyles, we don't do as much together as I do with my single 
friends.

Magpie:
Yes, but you're talking about the way that different lifestyles tend 
to throw together marries and singles so that they hang out more 
with each other. MWPP became friends as kids when they had the exact 
same lifestyle and nobody knew who was going to be a parent and who 
wasn't. James then turned out to be someone who wanted to marry the 
girl he focused on for years. Why would this mean the other three 
(James is the odd man out here) are unusual for not grabbing the 
nearest woman and marrying her too? They didn't even have 
girlfriends, so getting married wasn't a particularly realistic 
choice. Perhaps they might have drifted apart if James and Lily 
started being more interested in other couples with children and the 
other three hung out more with single people (though given the 
James/Sirius relationship I have a hard time believing they wouldn't 
have remained friends), but but I don't think it's unusual that 
Sirius wasn't married at 23 just because James was. 

> Magpie:
>> Certainly not to show him James and Sirius looking bad--why would
> Snape
>> think Harry would think James and Snape looked bad there anyway?
> If Snape
>> thought that of Harry doesn't it suggest that Snape knows Harry is
> not like
>> James, that he's a good person who might be on Snape's side? I
> think Snape
>> might assume Harry would think it was as funny as his father did
> (and
>> everyone did at the time--Harry would have to be better than
> everyone Snape
>> was at school with). You're describing this as depending on Snape
> knowing
>> Harry's shortcomings (he'll peek into the Pensieve), but it seems
> to more
>> depend on Snape knowing Harry's virtues.
>
> Alla:
>
> Okay, yes, I agree this is a strong argument against this being a 
set 
> up in a sense that why would Snape think that Harry would be 
> embarassed or something like that.
>
> BUT if the set up was done with the main purpose to get rid of 
> Occlumency lessons, then it does not matter IMO. All that Snape 
needed 
> IMO would be for Harry to peek in the Pensieve and I think it 
would be 
> a pretty good guess to make, especially if DD clued Snape in on 
Harry 
> making that trip in his pensieve in GoF.

Magpie:
But if Snape just needs Harry to peek in the Pensieve why put 
something so humiliating about himself in it? This is Snape we're 
talking about--would he really ever want Harry to see him in his 
grey underwear? Why not stick any memory in there and just say that 
Harry looked in the Pensieve and that's it?

It just seems like a lot of machinations that replace a scene that 
brings together important emotional stuff in the story that's 
already been important in the past: Snape hates James, Snape hates 
Harry, Dumbledore thinks this "wound" of Snape can't be healed, 
Snape hates James for using Snape's spells against him, Snape can't 
stand looking weak. If it's all just a trick on Snape's part--his 
own version of the Midnight Duel--the scene's not important 
emotionally at all--except for the alleged destruction of Harry's 
previously high view of his father (which isn't destroyed at all, of 
course). 

> Magpie:
>> I also have a hard time believing Snape assumed he'd be called
> away. He was
>> only called away here due to circumstances beyond his control that
> had to do
>> with Slytherin. It's not like Snape automatically gets called any
> time
>> anything went wrong. If he was banking on that I think he might
> have been
>> disappointed and Harry would never have gone into the Pensieve. I
> don't see
>> why Dumbledore would tattle on Harry to Snape about going into his
> Pensieve
>> before.
>>
> Alla:
>
> See above, seems like rather easy one to me. Of course Snape is 
> banking, but I would think that he would have waited few nights 
and if 
> nothing would have come out would made Malfoy to call Snape out 
for 
> something fictitious.

Magpie:
But of course Malfoy didn't call him out for something fictitious so 
it's like proving a negative. There's no sign in canon that Snape 
put this memory there hoping Harry would see it. We just have to 
assume that he *would* have brought Malfoy in on it (inviting Malfoy 
into lessons Snape was keeping quiet from him) if it hadn't worked. 
We'll just never know because he didn't have to do that.

Alla:>
> As to why Dumbledore would say, maybe for strategic purposes to 
let 
> Snape know that Harry is now aware of some interesting things in 
his 
> past.

Magpie:
He could certainly do that, but it seems very not Dumbledore to do 
that by revealing that Harry did something naughty--to Snape of all 
people. He's just handing him another thing to judge Harry for and 
possibly use against him. (As he's doing in this theory.) Dumbledore 
could have just told Snape that he shared this information with 
Harry. It seems very unlike him to tell Snape the circumstances in a 
case like that.

Basically, to believe this was a set up on Snape's part on need some 
sign that he's doing that. Some sign that Malfoy's coming in was 
planned, a sign that Snape's acting. 


Anne_Squires:
By the time we get to OotP, Snape has been keeping tabs on Harry for
years. If Harry or any of the trio were bullies then I think Snape
would be aware of it and would have called them on it. Snape has
accused Harry of many things such as being arrogant "like his 
father."

But, IIRC, Snape has never accused Harry of being a bully. (I mean
up to this point in the series---OotP) And I'll bet he's been looking
for that particulr trait. Add to this the fact that Snape has
recently seen some of Harry's Dursley/Dudley memories. Now after
having seen Harry's memories I truly do believe that Snape knows that
Harry will at the least be dismayed and at the most be horrified to
see that his father was a bully in the same vein as Dudley, Aunt
Marge, Aunt Petunia, and Uncle Vernon. Snape does in fact realize 
that Harry would be more likely to identify with and empathize with 
the victim of a bully and have some rather strong feelings against 
the bully. I just love the irony of the whole thing. The bully's 
victim uses this very memory to get revenge on his tormentor via 
this son. It's a very immature thing for Snape to do. But, then 
again, that's Snape for you.

Magpie:
I guess that set up is ironic, but I'm not seeing Snape in it at 
all. It seems to assume that a certain view of Harry and of bullying 
must be shared by Snape because it's objectively true when I don't 
know that it is. 

Snape doesn't call James a bully any more than he calls Harry a 
bully--he calls James someone who was arrogant, who used Snape's 
spells against him and who went after him 4-on-1. His character to 
me seems to consistently be shown to despise weakness, and if James 
is the bully and Snape is the victim Snape is weak. He doesn't 
accept that role in the Pensieve either--he insults Lily for coming 
to his rescue and continues to try to fight back. I think he'd be 
furious if someone described Snape's relationship with James as 
victim and bully.

So it seems a leap for him to assume that because Harry, too, has 
had people push him around he must therefore identify with all 
victims of bullies when Snape himself absolutely does not. It's even 
harder for me to imagine any situation where Snape said to 
himself, "You know what would be a great burn on Potter? I'll show 
him that day I got hung upside down with people laughing at my dirty 
underwear." I can't imagine a single situation where Snape would 
ever consider Harry seeing his underwear a good thing. I suspect 
that if you gave Snape a choice of reliving the day he went to the 
Dark Lord with the Prophecy, reliving the day he joined the DEs and 
reliving this day? I think he'd choose either of the first two over 
this one.

-m